Rules?

[Done]

I'd love see what comes out of that thread. I think it would really help newbies like myself understand what's actually expected during a race, far better than reading blogs--which are, otherwise, an excellent source of inspiration, motivation, and education. But I'm not going to start a new, for fear of being assigned the dreaded 0 for 3 by any excitable score-keepers ( ).

[wookieone]

I think another issue that is coming up more and more is these rules were created when there were maybe a handful of folks showing up to do these things. Now with 30-40 showing up for the Tour Divide and CTR, it changes things. No offense to any newbies, but there is a core group of folks that I trust completely, to follow the rules, to be honest and fair, even with my life. But with 40+ you start to get people who are more focused on the "race" than the whole bad ass DIY mode that makes it so cool. Thus you get folks cutting corners, calling for help, etc, blah, blah blah. I hate to see it as this style of events make me very happy to be a part of. Maybe we just need to come with harder stuff....ok enough from me..Jefe

[ScottM]

Answering the OP's question.

So, here's the question: Are the rules actually rules, or are they simply guidelines? Or perhaps it's really up to each rider to decide--which seems to be the unwritten reality?

The intent is that they are rules, not guidelines.  A few of the areas mentioned in this thread are not spelled out well in the rules, and people are taking different views on them as a result (not surprising).  I think that's where the issue is coming from.

I'm hoping to have a better understanding of this before attempting my first races next summer. I don't want to be thought of as a jerk if were to refuse to help another rider with a mechanical issue (my inclination would be to help!), but I don't want to be cheating either (which is important when "racing" compared to "touring"). In short, I need some help understanding what's appropriate so that I can fit in and do the right thing. Thanks!

Seems fair to me.  Hopefully we can clear a few things up.

IMO all of the following are legit: trail magic (hard to define, I know, and I think some people abuse it), sharing stuff with other racers (as long as you did not plan to collaborate), bike shops / hotels, navigational assistance to other riders and getting SPOT tracking info from people at home (or other riders).

To my knowledge none of these have been addressed specifically by the rules.  I guess we need to.

[DaveH]

IMO all of the following are legit: trail magic (hard to define, I know, and I think some people abuse it), sharing stuff with other racers (as long as you did not plan to collaborate), bike shops / hotels, navigational assistance to other riders and getting SPOT tracking info from people at home (or other riders).

To my knowledge none of these have been addressed specifically by the rules.  I guess we need to.

Who decides?  Individual race promoters?

I'm not so sure I agree with the SPOT update info from home/friends.  That's outside the realm of self-support.  I also don't think you are in a conflict-free position to make the call, at least outside of your events.

These things are always more complex upon analysis...

[ScottM]

Right, individual promoters.  I didn't meant to suggest every event will be the same.  Already there are some differences in rules, as I think Chris said earlier in this thread.  Usually they are minor, though.  SPOT stuff may be another difference.

I'll bite on the SPOT info discussion and yes, it can be complex!! 

If it is not legal, can you ask friends/family for info on the weather?  Fire conditions?  What about in a race with call-ins, can they pass that data along?  What about info posted from other racer's friends/family on a forum such as bikepacking.net?

To me it just doesn't make sense to limit what topics of conversation can be covered with your friends/family.  Since SPOT usage is optional, if someone doesn't want to be seen on the tracker, they can not carry a SPOT, or turn it off.

I guess I should say that I agree with you in principle, that it's outside the strictest definition of self-support.  But so is allowing calling friends/family in the first place, right?  That's having someone else 'help' you. 

The SPOT issue is further complicated by the fact that you can get on a computer (in a library) or use your iPhone to get tracking info.  Is that outside self support?

Just touching on some of the issues....

I'm curious to hear more about why you think it shouldn't be allowed, and I do realize I'm not conflict-free, though clearly the big use for tracking is for spectators, not racers.

[DaveH]

The "golden standard" so to speak for testing whether or not something should be allowed in an event is this:  is said service(s) available to all?

Now, I know the cell phone use, for example, has been  hotly debated and devolves into an emotion argument where folks get all pissed off about having a race promoter trying to "dictate" whether or not racers can talk with family members in a race.  But seriously:  if I call LW will she give me info she would  not give out to ever other racer?  You bet she would, she'd be rooting for me (or me for her if she was racing) and we'd do anything for each other.  Is that fair?  Is that available to everyone?

Clearly, no, and no.

SPOT use and cell phone allowance has completely changed the game.  Reading Kurt's report of the AZT300 earlier this year sent chills up my spine when he related that he called home and his g/f told him to get his ass in gear or he was gonna get passed.  If that's not outside support I don't know what is.

I don't think it is fair to call family/friends for information pertinent to the race.  If there is a call in number (e.g. the Joe Polk line), general information can be presented in the voicemail intro because everyone that calls has that available to them.

In my mind though the point in moot.  Riders will do what they wish, everyone has their own set of ethics to live by.  The multi-day race experience, at least for myself, is much more about the journey within, not so much the competition between riders.  Hence, the Trans Utah rules are loose to non-existent and will continue to be so.

Note:  this is not a dig at Kurt because he was well within the rules for the race...and kicked arse.

[ScottM]

Well it is certainly interesting to hear a different viewpoint.  So if I understand correctly, you think getting SPOT info from an iPhone or public computer is fine, since it's available to everyone?

[DaveH]

A public computer is fine - available to all.

An iPhone is a different matter as it is only available to iPhone users.  Sure, everyone can go get one before an event, but that takes us down the road where $$ matters, and could also be less than feasible for entrants from other nations?  Dunno the particulars and don't really care to - but I wouldn't want to set a precedent where maintaining a level playing field required more and more $$ from participants.

[ScottM]

Level playing field and $$ are a sticky subject, IMO.  Someone on a 50 lb Huffy isn't going to race well, ya know?  But I do see your point with the iPhone.

I guess I'm still wondering if you really have a problem with the lack of level playing field or if you just have a problem with the specificity/quality of the data being provided.

By your "golden standard" calls to LW should not be allowed at all.  Is her enthusiasm / encouragement available to all?  She's probably going to be more on top of things like weather/fire conditions, and will pass that along.  Even if she passes no race pertinent info along, some people don't have someone to call for a mental boost, maybe even at 3am or some silly time like that.

[Pivvay]

I'm more in line with Scott here but I like the discussion. I've viewed it as...you want to carry an iPhone, fine with me. Your bill, your charger, your extra weight. If I think it's valualbe, I'll carry or borrow one for a race. We've been able to carry sat phones forever and there is no rule against it but no one does. Is the cost/value just not there? That would be my interpretation. It's the same as if I spend $400 before the race on a lighter carbon fork or new sleeping bag. The iPhone is available to all that are willing to pay for it, just as quitting your job to train more and have less money is too. If I don't want someone to know where I am with the SPOT, then turn it off. It should be pretty easy to make private SPOT pages should we really ever NEED the tracking, otherwise I'm still okay with people being taken at their word or using their GPS track to prove where they've been only if there is a serious question of cheating. I don't want to legislate races into giantly complex rulesets to cover every issue. It can't be done anyway. Once we cover one issue, a new one will evolve or come up. I'm sure that's what MikeC was originally getting at with his "elevate yourself" statement. I understand some new rules are inevitable as the fields grow.

If we step outside our little circle, I think other groups wouldn't view our "self support" in the same light. Calling for a mental boost would get nixed. Independent traveling with another racer would get nixed. Resupplies would get nixed. Motel stays would get nixed. Restaurants would get nixed. The mandatory "Absolute Bikes" stop on the Divide would be outside assistance.

The question is, do we care? I'm not sure that we do, I just would like to preserve the events as they've been run, with the vibe they have. Keep them about personal growth and adventure first, racing second. If you don't want cell phones to be a factor, maybe hold races outside of cell reception areas.

I certainly know that for me, seeing Marni on the Divide, while breaking no rules is a point of contention for some. It's certainly support even though she did absolutely nothing for me. It definitely made me slower. But would I have finished without it? I'm not sure. Are similar options available to all? I think so but I can also see the other side of the argument. I carry the burden of stopping to call when I can. I'd be faster not calling most of the time but I haven't yet been ready to give up that emotional support. I don't regret it. It's taken me years just to not see her for a few days!

This is good discussion no?

[tRoy]

Indeed Pivvay it is a good one.

...Riders will do what they wish, everyone has their own set of ethics to live by.  The multi-day race experience, at least for myself, is much more about the journey within, not so much the competition between riders.  Hence, the Trans Utah rules are loose to non-existent and will continue to be so...

Amen to that. 

Rules are meant to be broken.  Why limit ourselves with what is available in this world?
I'm not saying go lie and cheat.  I'm just saying do the ride/race how you want to, and step up to the plate with your intentions well worn and shown. 
Imagine if Lance Armstrong showed up to the next CTR with $$$$, cameras and Tour de France tactics/ethics; then rides the course "perfectly" in 72 hours while leaving behind a wake of support crew.  I imagine that much of the world would embrace his style and his record while "us old school bikepackers" hemmed and hawed and discreditted his effort. 

And this may be mostly FEEL A SOPHICAL, but when I stop caring about who is faster than me and why they are faster than me, and are they breaking MY RULES... then I feel like I can fly. 

[DaveH]

Didn't Kurt ride a huffy at AZT this year?  

My issue?  We've been bitten by the uncertainty principal.  In an effort to observe the races, the races themselves have been changed.  Instead of nothing but tracks and wind and time to gauge race progress, we now have satellites, cell towers, and high speed optic cable at our disposal  Even the UCI struggles with this as radios appear to be banned for road racing in '10.

I completely agree on your last point - and concur with the GDR cell phone use rule that sure, bring one if you must but use it and you are relegated.

Hard core views, I know.  Again the point is moot.  I think for most that do these events it's not about the race, it's about the journey.  At least I hope.  And, a journey is so much better shared...so eliminating cell phones makes no sense from that standpoint.

[Done]

Hi Dave,

Banning cell phones is kinda rough on people like me. I own a business, and there are moments when people REALLY need to talk to me. If I properly plan ahead, those moments are few and far between. But still, staying in some degree of touch is  important to me, and I'm be a fool to jeopardize my business and the careers of my employees by entering a race where I am forced to chose between answering an important call and being disqualified. I do understand the reasoning behind banning phones, but it ends up unnecessarily discriminating against folks who have legitimate (and non-cheating) reasons for needing them.

Cheers,
Toby

[DaveH]

Ah, well racing requires 110% focus, anything less is something else.  If you've got to keep one ear open for the phone these races are not gonna work out for you!  Most of the time there is no service.  If peoples livelihoods are on the line doing one of these would be irresponsible.

Toby, I really think you are wanting to bikepack, not so much race.  Just get out there and do some multi-day trips and see where that takes your interest.

[Done]

Hi Dave,

Yes, in a perfect world there wouldn't be the need to balance work, family, play, etc. We could dedicate 100% (110% being a statistical impossibility) to the task at hand.

But the world isn't perfect, is it? And many people have actually gotten pretty good at multi-tasking. Hell, I can even chew gum and ride at the same time (200%)!

The unwarrented and condescending tone of your last sentence is disappointing. Let's make a deal: you don't tell me what I want to do on my bike, and I won't tell you where to shove yours. Truce?

[Pivvay]

DH,

Hard core views are fine, I'm okay with that. But if you're going to allow pay phones, then cell phones should be fair game. After being out on the Divide this year and following a no cell phone rule, I just don't see a difference. Either phones are out or phones are in. Plus MC never had a no sat phone rule, so those are technically in? You can rent one for not *that* much money.

But the uncertainty thing is right on. If we want to watch, it changes the game. The solo, phone free ITT is still more pure. No trail magic or resupply is purer still.

[DaveH]

Toby you are clearly a troll.  Keep it spinning.

Chris, I guess I'll agree with all that.  It's a theoretical discussion anyway.  If there could be spot tracking without the additional 7.5 oz and spot knowledge disseminated to racers, well that'd be a perfect world.

Scott - you're the CS whiz, there's your challenge.

[Pivvay]

Dave you can almost have that. Just put your SPOT on a private link and don't share it with anyone but LW. The new unit should be down to 5 oz hopefully...

The discussions remind me a bit of the old rock climbing ethics issues...hopefully we don't have "the cell phone wars". haha

[ScottM]

Ah, well racing requires 110% focus, anything less is something else.  If you've got to keep one ear open for the phone these races are not gonna work out for you!  Most of the time there is no service.  If peoples livelihoods are on the line doing one of these would be irresponsible.

Toby, I really think you are wanting to bikepack, not so much race.  Just get out there and do some multi-day trips and see where that takes your interest.

I think that's a little excessive.  Lots of people go into races not 100% focused on the task at hand.  We're human, right?  You do the best you can with what you have out there.  

Your goal, and my goal, may be to focus 110% on the ride, but who says everyone has to?  Who says we ever reach that goal?  If someone wants to take a business call while they race, that's just minutes you get ahead of them...

[ScottM]

Didn't Kurt ride a huffy at AZT this year?  

Ah, must've been all that extra weight he was pushing that kept him warm!

Hard core views, I know.  Again the point is moot.  I think for most that do these events it's not about the race, it's about the journey.  At least I hope.  And, a journey is so much better shared...so eliminating cell phones makes no sense from that standpoint.

I agree completely that it's the journey and that this kind of racing is a much more personal thing, but it doesn't mean we can't come to a determination on some of these issues so that newcomers can better understand what the 'challenge' that is being issued on these routes is.