Rules?

[ScottM]

Rules are meant to be broken.  Why limit ourselves with what is available in this world?

And this may be mostly FEEL A SOPHICAL, but when I stop caring about who is faster than me and why they are faster than me, and are they breaking MY RULES... then I feel like I can fly.  

Ah, but isn't part of racing to use others as inspiration/reason to push ourselves further than we might have otherwise?  So, some of us do care about who is faster, or more accurately, care that someone is faster.

Otherwise I agree -- focus on yourself and worry not what others are doing.

Along the lines of inspiration and pushing limits, Matthew Lee has suggested that "we are in the business of fostering and inspiring super-human efforts.  To that end, obtaining tracking data on your competitors might support as much."

But that's coming from another non-conflict-free trackleader.

[Done]

Hi Dave,

Up until the moment that you decided to tell me how I should ride my bike, I haven't attacked, degraded, or insulted anyone on this forum. Even then, I simply suggested that, in return for your peace, I wouldn't cross the line.

The ironic truth is that YOUR CTR experience is one of the reasons why I started this thread. I thought it inappropriate to name names, because I am an outsider and didn't want to pick a fight with an obviously experienced and respected rider. But I couldn't understand how the rules worked, because you accepted support in the form of an inhaler--and then finished the race and were placed in the rankings. I certainly think that it was justified to accept medicine in your condition (dying is bad), but I couldn't understand why you didn't DQ yourself from an official standing. I also couldn't figure out the part about getting help fixing your hub. If this sort of assistance is allowed on the CTR, despite the rules, then its either acceptable to break the written rules, or I don't understand them--despite their apparent simplicity. Don't you think that it's strange that you're one of the reasons I started this thread, and now you're the one who's ripping me apart--despite my efforts to keep the discussion abstract so that you didn't feel singled out?

So I'm a troll because I look for clarification on the rules? And I should limit my riding to bikepacking because I occasionally need to take a brief business call?

Why so much anger and hate?

[ScottM]

Wow.  Let's try to cool it down, or this may be the first bp.net thread that needs moderation!

In past events the emphasis has been on no "pre-arranged support."  Harris had no idea I would be carrying an inhaler, and I was under no obligation to give it to him.  Getting food, mechanical, navigational, etc assistance from other racers has been allowed.

Stefan is busy at the moment and unable to chime in on his intentions for the CTR rules, but from what I understand he wasn't trying to make a break from that interpretation of self support.  His FAQ says:

Q: Can racers ride together?

A: Yes. However, this is a solo competition - racers may not draft each other nor plan on sharing gear.

Note the word "plan."

The (perhaps?) unfortunate part is he continued with:

Companionship, and likely some additional competitive motivation, are the only things racers traveling together may provide each other.

I've talked briefly with him and he has said things like swapping of food are OK with him, so perhaps that last sentence is a little misplaced.  I am not sure.

I actually did not thoroughly read Stefan's rules before the CTR (honestly the tracker had me up to my eyeballs).  I assumed he had kept them the same as other events (since that is where they came from).  As I said elsewhere, ignorance is no excuse if he indeed changed them, but I do want to take some responsibility for assuring Dave that accepting something from me was ok (likewise with the trail angel tent -- he at first questioned whether it was ok).

I do think that this and other issues are currently 'gray areas' that need to be clarified for future races, which is, I think, the original point of your post.

[Slowerthensnot]

Self supported racers are a passionate bunch...  Anger is bound to follow if your questioning someone's efforts

your gonna get strong answers to your questions when you ask...

i've always been a fan of keeping the rules as simple as possible and maybe that leaves some areas for clarification if the trail magic gives me pause then i'll pass...

starting a solo itt from antelope wells this year there was some beers had and food shared with me and golly it rocked to have people contact! Even the dirty hippies at the rainbow gathering in NM....  

This mtbr thread form the wayback machine might give some laughs

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=323124

[DaveH]

Why so much anger and hate?

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

2 out of 4.

[mnmtb]

This should probably not be my forst post since I have not even introduced myself to the gang herem but here goes.

I have been planning on the CTR for 2010 with a GDR in 2011.  I raced XC for a number of years, accidentally got into 24 hr races and never looked back.  Now I would like to push myself even father with multi-day stage races.  I have read every thread and post in Q&A, Racing, and Bikepacking (yes I really have), I have been going to sleep for the past week with the Colorado Trail book.  My wife thinks that I am irresponsible for attempting this race, I counter that it would be irresposnsible to not COMPLETELY prepare for this race (route info, gear, physically, etc).  So this thread (minus the emotions) has had particular interest to me since I look at the three simple rules as the guide to what I bring and how I plan.

Over the past few days I have been giving a lot of throught to how I would respond to many different situations on the trail during the race and I believe that the following would not disqualify me from the race.  BUT, and this is a big BUT, this is from a complete outsider who has never run a multi-stage race.  I have done some 100 mile self-supported races and the rules are gennerally very similar.  I am posting here not to get anyone angry but to list the things I have thought about and to see if I would still be classified at the end of the race. 

One of the early posts kind of summed up the there rules with the comment, "what if you were riding alone and not part of a race"  This is how I came to the following decisions.

Here goes:

Mile 28  I break down crying on the side of the trail and ask myself "what were you thinking?"  Another rider comes along and says "straighten up your skirt and get riding".  I wipe the tears from my eyes and keep riding to Durango.  I accept his moral support and will still consider myself a finisher

Mile 70 I see a multi-tool on the trail.  It has a chian breaker on it which is really lucky because in my haste to get ready I forgot mine.  I pick up the tool and will consider myself a finisher

MIle 75 My chain breaks and I use the found breaker to fix it and keep on my way. Trail magic.  I consider myself a finisher

MIle 80  Meet another CTR rider on the trail and he is bummed that he lost he lost his multi-tool with chain breaker.  He describes it and it is just like the one I found and use.  Being th ehonest person and thinking I just filled up the karma tank, I offer up the one I found and he does a little dance of joy.  "That's it" he says.  An exchange is made.  Was never mine, but found, returned to rightful owner, I would still consider both os us finishers

MIle 120 My multi-tool freind and I have been riding together for 40 miles now and we come to a not so well marked turn.  We discuss it together and decide to go left.  We are correct and keep riding together.  Two riders using what they brought on their own making independent decisions, I will consider myself a finisher

Mile 150 I have been eating Dark chocolate Snickers for the past two days.  He brings out a Twix bar.  We exchange a Twix for a Snickers. I would have choked down the Snikers but man that Twix sure tasted good. I will still consider myself a finisher

MIle 200 I call the wife and kids to say hi because I really miss them.  It would be irresponsible to not call them (see earlier statement about responsibility).  I get a little choked talking to them, I haven't slept much so emotions come out easier.  Wife an kids cheer me on and sya they have been following me on SPOT and are realy proud.  OUtside support?  Maybe, but not in my world that would disqualify me. I will still consider myself a finisher

Mile 201 I begin to wonder how I am doing compared to others.  I call back the wife and ask here who is ahead and behind me.  She tells me I am behind the next by 8 hours and the one behind is closing fast and only 2 hours behind me.  I straighten my skirt and pedal off  I personnally consider this too much outside support and regret my decision and would not consider myself a finisher

Mile 202 It was ll just a hazy dream, but I think I can pull into the library and check the internet myself.  I do and find who is ahead and behind. I see another racer check too.  We exchange evil glances, I thank Al Gore for inventing the internet and off I go  I figured out how to use one of those fancy internet computers and I still consider myself a finisher

Mile 300 Along side the trail is a tent with cold beer and brats on the grill.  An old man with a long white beard says I am the trail Angel and these a free to al who want one.  I rub my eyes twice to make sure I am not dreaming.  I'm not .  That beer an brat sure tasted good.  Away I go with a big thanks.  Available to all, I am still a finisher

MIle 350 I have been carrying my bike up this damn mountain for the last two hours.  I pass some through-hikers who are on their way down.  I ask "How much furhter to the top?"  They give me the bad news but I continue on.  I was lucky to passs them and others may too.  I consider this OK, it would be rude to not talk at all so I still consider myself a finisher.

Durango I roll into town and can't believe it was only 9 days ago that I started .  I think I raced by the rules and look for my name on the official list of finishers.

Sorry it is so long. But early on in this post some specifics were requested. These are mine.  I hope that there are always grey areas and they we are honest with ourselves first and other races second.  I love the fact that there are only three rules.  This is part of the attraction to me.  Hope to see and meet you all in August 2010.

Jeff

[DaveH]

if you're going to allow pay phones, then cell phones should be fair game. After being out on the Divide this year and following a no cell phone rule, I just don't see a difference. Either phones are out or phones are in. Plus MC never had a no sat phone rule, so those are technically in? You can rent one for not *that* much money.

Ya know, there is a difference between cell phones and pay phones.  It took a night for it to materialize in my head.

The key difference is availability.  Kurt is a great example.  How would AZT have turned out this year without cell phones?  It's hard to say - but it certainly could have been different.  Another is Scott & I at CTR this year.  He was stalking me  like a lion between BV and hwy 50, calling home to get my SPOT info.  I was drifting off to sleep as he pulled up and kept me awake for the next 90 minutes.

So, I guess I'm against cell phones after all.  Clearly though, it's mostly due to SPOT info.  I reckon I'll be riding incognito in 2010.  During CTR I was always wondering where Jeff Oatley was - and that was pretty cool.

[Pivvay]

Once again, IMO, it comes down to what you're using the cell phone for, not the phone itself. I still see no reason to ban cell phones but not other ways to call.

Plus pretty soon there are just going to be no payphones. I couldn't find one working one in Pinedale which is pretty darn big by Divide standards!! The one in Bedrock is gone no? The situation of sitting in Gary and Patti's house on the Divide, not able to use Gary's only home phone because it was a cell phone, was pretty hilarious.

[Done]

Call me what you want, Dave--and enjoy keeping score. I really don't care anymore--I simply don't find any credibility or consistency in how you choose to ride or behave. That said, I did enjoy reading your CTR blog--it is obvious that you ride hard, and it's truly inspiring.

Other than engendering Dave's wrath, I think that this thread has been successful. I've learned how I'll approach my rides next summer. Specifically, I'll ride according the the written word of the rules--and when situations arise that don't have written rules I'll, a DIY philosophy will be my guide. This means that accepting support from other racers if it helps me proceed down the trail would result in a self-imposed DQ. It doesn't matter if it's pre-arranged or not. I think the ideal of self-sufficient racing is very cool and it's why I am attracted to this sport.

So, thanks to everyone who helped me arrive at this conclusion. I'll certainly abide by any new/modified rules that the organizers determine are desirable, even if means no cell phones (although I may not be able to enter those if they are long). I'm looking forward to giving it 97%!

Happy trails!

Cheers,
Toby

[DaveH]

Call me what you want, Dave--and enjoy keeping score. I really don't care anymore--I simply don't find any credibility or consistency in how you choose to ride or behave. That said, I did enjoy reading your CTR blog--it is obvious that you ride hard, and it's truly inspiring.

Wow.  A compliment with a twist of the knife.  Consistent, at least.

If multi-day self-supported racing was more than a thought experiment for you I'd be disturbed by your comments.

It's been interesting to see your emergence on this board, and in the process alienating the vast majority of those you come in contact with.  You're off to a great start.

Listen more and spew less and you might be able to salvage something. 

[Done]

Hi Dave,

Let's take this off line, eh? I don't expect that most readers really enjoy tit-for-tat exchanges, which is unfortunately what this is becoming. Feel free to call me, 970-481-9066.

Cheers,
Toby

[DaveH]

Hi Dave,

Let's take this off line, eh? I don't expect that most readers really enjoy tit-for-tat exchanges, which is unfortunately what this is becoming. Feel free to call me, 970-481-9066.

Cheers,
Toby

Not a chance.

[donkey]

So, thanks to everyone who helped me arrive at this conclusion. I'll certainly abide by any new/modified rules that the organizers determine are desirable, even if means no cell phones (although I may not be able to enter those if they are long). I'm looking forward to giving it 97%!

Happy trails!

Cheers,
Toby

Sounds like you accomplished what you came here to do.....great. Now stop posting. Please.

Thanks,

B

[Done]

Will do.

Have a great winter.

Cheers,
Toby

[ScottM]

The key difference is availability.  Kurt is a great example.  How would AZT have turned out this year without cell phones?  It's hard to say - but it certainly could have been different.  Another is Scott & I at CTR this year.  He was stalking me  like a lion between BV and hwy 50, calling home to get my SPOT info.  I was drifting off to sleep as he pulled up and kept me awake for the next 90 minutes.

Ha!  I got far more info (and better info) from other people out on the trail than I did from my phone/Paula/SPOT.  

You could have turned it off, but until you invent a cloaking device, I still would have been 'stalking' you.

As for Kurt, any time something inspires a faster performance, I'm stoked.  Stefan could have checked in and hunted Kurt down.  If so, great.  Equal playing field.  

The information is either in the public domain or it is not.  IMO, we are either totally cut off from the outside world, or we accept that we are still a part of it.  I don't see what the big worry is -- you still have to pedal the bike, and no amount of info on where Owen Murphy is will make it so I can catch him.

[krefs]

Wow, I've been missing out on quite the discussion here, complete with trolls and witches and talk of a fairytale-esque superlight SPOT unit.  I'll toss in my two cents after spending 25 minutes reading all this!

- rules: yup, they're rules.  there are definitely grey areas, not all the rules make complete sense, but the rules are rules none the less.

- trail magic: same thoughts as Pivvay - fair game if it's unplanned, unexpected, not from anyone you know

- riding/sharing with other competitors: this seems to vary a bit based on the wording of event organizers as ScottM pointed out, so you'll just have to read the wording carefully, and if there's any confusion, ask the organizer.  They have the final say in the rules.  

- mailing stuff to yourself: this is one I don't completely agree with.  I think as long as anyone can mail something to an address prior to the race, it should be allowed.  The Divide rules state something like pre-race, you can only mail items to post offices.  During the race, anyone can mail you anything to any commercial address.  I think it should that needs to be modified to allow either any commercial address to be used pre-race or only post offices anytime.  I mailed a box of parts to Salida during the Divide and had to haul ass for 2.5 days to make sure I got there before closing.  I made it with 30 minutes to spare.  Had I had a friend ship that stuff to Absolute Bikes the day after the race started, I would have had a few more hours to get to Salida.  But again, the key is that shipping stuff pre-race is available to everyone, so I don't see any question in whether or not that's against the self-supported approach in ultra racing.

- and finally, the SPOT/cell phone issue.  DH earlier in the thread brought up the AZT...my call to Maggie definitely changed the way the final few hours of the race played out.  Ironically, Scott, Chris, Stefan, and I had had a lengthy discussion about this the first afternoon of the race as we were riding north of Patagonia.  The same issue has been discussed on the TD forum, specifically regarding whether or not spectators should be allowed to influence the outcome of the race through providing tracking info over the phone.  I made that call because I was dragging and just wanted to talk to Maggie, and since phones were allowed under AZT rules, I didn't think anything of it.  Maggie answered and the first thing out of her mouth was about how close Stefan was.  Interesting.  Should there be rules for what information spectators can relay?  In my opinion, they shouldn't tell you where the course goes, where the nearest Taco Bell is, or how to repair your exploded rear hub.  SPOT tracking info is a bit of a grey area, since other racers are openly broadcasting their position.  Like Pivvay says, if they don't want people to know where they are, they should turn off their unit or use a private tracking page.  I could have carried an Iphone and used it to watch the SPOT dots move all through the race, but I can't afford one, and I honestly don't want to know where everyone is all through the race.  At the end of the day, am I curious where everyone is?  Sure!  Pre-SPOT, I would have had to fall asleep wondering, but now racers tell the world where they are.  Internet access on newer phones provides a whole new source of information, so I think in the end it's going to have to come down to one of three rules:

(1) Phones are allowed for verbal communication only, but spectators can't do anything to affect the outcome of the race other than providing moral support.
(2) Any type of phone is allowed.  Use tracking from any source as you want.  If you don't want to be tracked, don't use a SPOT
(3) Phones are allowed for emergency use only.  Use it and DQ yourself.

I can see Pivvay's logic that anyone can buy any sort of phone, or gear, if they have enough money.  I could have ridden the AZT faster if I wasn't on a Huffy, but I can't afford the lightest, fanciest, bike, just like I can't afford to train 40 hours a week and eat the healthiest diet out there.  On the other hand, I am leaning toward a the first option...talk to anyone you want, but they have to follow a rule, too: No relaying any information about the race itself.  If you call them and they spill some beans, that's the end for you.  But in the end, that's tough to enforce (unfortunately, with as popular as some of these races are getting, enforcement of rules is becoming necessary), and in the end I'd probably have to fall back to Pivvay's stance.

Those are my thoughts.  It simply comes down to the fact that I want to ride my bike, ride for a while longer, and explore new places.  Doing it fast and breaking records is a bonus, but that's not what drives me, and it shouldn't be what drives anyone else doing ultras.  If you can't finish as fast as you want without planning to rely solely on yourself and what's available to everyone else out there, then you really shouldn't be setting out in the first place.

[krefs]

"you still have to pedal the bike, and no amount of info on where Owen Murphy is will make it so I can catch him."

Right on, Scott. 

Perhaps it should come down to wording: Inspiration versus assistance.

[Marshal]

Following up on, & adding to Kurt’s comments

IMO the following should be a given for self supported mountain bike races:

a) Rules for an individual race are the rules for that race.  No personal ‘picking and choosing’ of rules form other races is acceptable.

b) Its each racers individual responsibility to be aware of and follow the “specific/unique” rules for the race they are participating in. You need to follow all the rules for said race, even a rule(s) you may personally disagree with.

c) Who ever organizes the event gets to set the rules for their event

d) The event organizer also gets the final call on any 'post race' rules interpretations/violations for their event.

[Marshal]

Marshal’s proposed ‘electronics’ rule for self supported mountain bike races

Note: race organizers are welcome to use my proposed rule, free of charge

Electronics Rule –nothing required, nothing prohibited

Electronics currently defined as:
Any type of:
Spot Trackers
GPS units
Lights
Phones
MP/music players
Solar or Mechanical chargers

[700see.]

I wondered how long it would take this board to be infiltrated fully by typical internet culture theorizing and counterpunching. The price of "progress" I suppose.

For those of you that don't like the concession for personal mail drops, think about the normal fare found at roadside stops - especially in remote areas. Now imagine if you had a condition like celiac disease or some other intolerance for a staple food ingredient that is found in a shocking amount of processed food and greasy spoon menus.

Few people use mail drops, but for someone in with the above condition, they are a necessity and definitely a competitive constraint that is hardly an advantage or contrary to the spirit of being self supported. I think there's at least one person on the board who bikepacks pretty seriously sans gluten that will pick up what I'm laying down.

I'm out, ad infinitum.