Rules?

[krefs]

I find the irony in many of the posts in this discussion tremendously amusing. 

I don't think anyone suggested anything about mail drops being prohibited.  They're perfectly legit, well established in ultra racing, and as you point out, imperative for some individuals.  The minutia of the mail drop rules merely need to be rethought a bit in my opinion.  Apparently what I laid down was to verbose for everyone to pick up.

[Pivvay]

No gluten - Jefe does for sure, although I know he does occasionally eat whatever. DH has been playing too?

EDIT: Oh and I'm totally with Kurt on the mail drop "issues". Make mail drops prerace allowed to any public place...Absolute Bikes for example, not just post offices.

[ScottM]

Actually I think it's a fair point.  Both Stefan and I have been thinking of axing mail drops since CTR and AZT are 'short' races.  Special dietary needs are a consideration.

[Pivvay]

If anything I'd say make a rule against sending HOME anything in the short races. Ditching bivy gear at the end just seems wrong to me...then again, I'm not really in favor of more unnecessary rules.

[ScottM]

Thanks for weighing in, Kurt.

- trail magic: same thoughts as Pivvay - fair game if it's unplanned, unexpected, not from anyone you know

I would add to that the qualifier that trail 'magic' needs to be offered to you, not asked for.  Bumming stuff off people is no bueno in my book.

On the other hand, I am leaning toward a the first option...talk to anyone you want, but they have to follow a rule, too: No relaying any information about the race itself.  If you call them and they spill some beans, that's the end for you. 

Right, I really don't like the idea of making rules on people that aren't a part of the race.  If 'SPOT talk' is banned, you have to brief every person you might call while out there to not give you SPOT or race pertinent info?  And if someone slips up or you forgot to tell them, your race is over?  Seems pretty harsh to me.

Those are my thoughts.  It simply comes down to the fact that I want to ride my bike, ride for a while longer, and explore new places.

I'm with you there.  These issues are very, very small in the scheme of things.

[ScottM]

IMO the following should be a given for self supported mountain bike races:

a) Rules for an individual race are the rules for that race.  No personal ‘picking and choosing’ of rules form other races is acceptable.

b) Its each racers individual responsibility to be aware of and follow the “specific/unique” rules for the race they are participating in. You need to follow all the rules for said race, even a rule(s) you may personally disagree with.

c) Who ever organizes the event gets to set the rules for their event

d) The event organizer also gets the final call on any 'post race' rules interpretations/violations for their event.

Pretty sure everyone is on the same page there.  Thanks.

[Mathewsen]

hey kurt,
i think i get what you were layin' down re. shipping.

if it lends 2c to the discussion, in order to avoid shipping abuse, TD rules have always specified that nothing may be shipped anywhere except to POs unless it is an emergency. Only in this case can a commercial address be used to solve the issue. Emergency is defined as a loss an essential piece of equipment (arm warmer, glove, cyclometer, etc.), immediate need for an essential medicine not available OTC (ie. prescribed for a medical condition) OR if one HAS experienced or IS experiencing failure of some essential bike part (pedal, chain, drivetrain, etc.) necessary to continue racing normally/safely.

In these emergencies we suggest you contact the commercial destination to inform them of your plans to ship there. it's only polite. As ambassadors of the GDMBR, we don't want to go shipping things well ahead of the race clock to random commercial addrs, nilly willy. businesses can be sketchy along the route anyway. you're as likely not to find a business open/available as you are to miss a PO drop. Plus, such behavior introduces a financial advantage for those willing to throw $ at lots of commercial (overnight/express) shipping.

Shipping basic food supplies or some other non-essential creature comfort to commercial addrs. once the race clock begins simply because it's easier or as a way to adjust timing for a more optimal delivery schedule seems to unlevel things. what do others have to say on this? i suppose a note from one's doctor about gluten intolerance might be a reasonable exception on certain long distance routes.

as for marshall's electronics rule, TD is happy to give him credit for his version posted above as long as he cites TD as his source of inspiration.

[Pivvay]

I just don't see it as unleveling things though maybe it's just me. If you can send to a post office, why not a public place? I think they're likely to be open far more hours than a PO which is important in tiny places. Of course you should make sure the businesses don't mind and/or compensate them. I happily compensated Absolute for accepting my box of spare parts and fixing my bike and I'd likely do the same for a restaurant or a hotel.

The financial issue is moot to me. Those with $ can eat better, ride a nicer bike and pay for faster shipping. It doesn't make them tougher or faster. Why should people willing to spend money be penalized for it? If it takes a little more money to go as fast as possible in a race, then perhaps people will just save a little more or abuse the CC that much extra. Money makes a difference all over the race, shipping is just a tiny area. With the realities of traveling far and fast, it's not like you could realistically send packages to pick up every day? You can't buy your way across the GDMBR, you have to pedal!

As always, i'll follow whatever the rules are but the shipping thing, like the cell phone thing, don't quite add up in my mind.

[Mathewsen]

I just don't see it as unleveling things though maybe it's just me. If you can send to a post office, why not a public place? I think they're likely to be open far more hours than a PO which is important in tiny places. Of course you should make sure the businesses don't mind and/or compensate them. I happily compensated Absolute for accepting my box of spare parts and fixing my bike and I'd likely do the same for a restaurant or a hotel.

The financial issue is moot to me. Those with $ can eat better, ride a nicer bike and pay for faster shipping. It doesn't make them tougher or faster. Why should people willing to spend money be penalized for it? If it takes a little more money to go as fast as possible in a race, then perhaps people will just save a little more or abuse the CC that much extra. Money makes a difference all over the race, shipping is just a tiny area. With the realities of traveling far and fast, it's not like you could realistically send packages to pick up every day? You can't buy your way across the GDMBR, you have to pedal!

As always, i'll follow whatever the rules are but the shipping thing, like the cell phone thing, don't quite add up in my mind.

first, although this is a worthy aspect of rules to discuss, fretting with shipping stuff mid-race will only slow a racer down, so i hope that's more the take-home msg than what is/isn't ethical. it takes up time you could be racing to manage it all. it's just another mcguyvered trapping of our western travel ethos. if at all possible, i think doing without should be our party line.

so, in general i'm not sure making easy the shipping of non-emergency supplies mid race to commercial addrs, period, jives with self-support/preparedness ethos. if done prior to race clock start it's even arguably preplanned outside assistance (beyond what limited human contact a general delivery pkg gets at a PO).

for divide racing, POs are allowed for those who MUST ship ahead for special diets or what-nots like Emergen-C or glucosamine or weed (i've "heard"), but it's not encouraged (with all due respect for our gluten-intolerant bretheren, of course). I always advise racers against using POs except at the halfway point of a race long enough to require chain replacement. live off the land as much as possible, me thinks. besides, it's impossible to plan well with shipping anyway. one will likely ride away from a PO post-resupply with way more weight than they ought carry, among other disadvantages. not to mention the bigger carbon footprint, FWIW.

PO shipping addrs database = available to all racers easily on one website. commercial addrs require birddogging, local/regional/national savvy, above-average command of the english language, abundant phone calls, etc. and this certainly disadvantages the international riders to some extent. calling (read: hassling) those businesses ahead of time (and even mid-race) to ensure feasibility seems no bueno. such legwork is not the case for POs. their terms are pretty cut and dry. BTW, the absolute bikes example is a fine one to cite as a symbiotic relationship for happy-happy commercial shipping but that is the exception, not the rule on the GDMBR.

[Marshal]

as for marshall's electronics rule, TD is happy to give him credit for his version posted above as long as he cites TD as his source of inspiration.

I hear by recognize TD as a source of inspiration for the:

Electronics Rule –nothing required, nothing prohibited

Marshal

(but ya got to admit – fewer words to get to basically the same point )

[DaNM]

I had an interesting rules scenario this year on the CTR. I dropped out for a variety of reasons but a broken pedal made it happen sooner.
   Before the race I bought new pedals, did`nt tighten one enough and stripped some threads on the crank. I JB welded and used lock tite on the good threads figuring the new pedals would last a long time. Not, I broke a spring on new crank brothers, unrelated to my fix. This happened near my house. I weighed out the oddball job and the 'rigging" my local mechanic would do and the cost of new pedals. VS using my trusty old pedals and seeing if I can make the threads hold, buying a new crank was not an option or new pedals. Going home for repair and finishing relegated OR spending $$$ ruthlessly..
 I need all my mental marbles aligned. Fortunately I rode some CT today.
 As for the original poster, I consider you to be "the masses" showing up, just like me. A theme of the CTR is " what if a thousand people did what you did". Don`t mess with peoples marbles, carry an inhaler and shop where you want to see growth.

[DaveH]

You could have turned it off, but until you invent a cloaking device, I still would have been 'stalking' you.

Well admittedly I was far from racing at CTR this year and didn't really care that much and we had a ton of fun riding together anyway.  It's just something that I found "interesting", when you told me you had been getting updates from Paula on my whereabouts. 

You were excited about *everyones* whereabouts, not just mine (as the first rider in front of you).  As the creator of trackleaders.com, I get it.  I'd be stoked too.  But, it absolutely, irrevocably, changes the game.

As for Kurt, any time something inspires a faster performance, I'm stoked.  Stefan could have checked in and hunted Kurt down.  If so, great.  Equal playing field.

Stefan could have called Maggie for some mojo uplift and beta?  Seriously, you don't see how this is outside support? 

Stepping back for a minute.  What is it that makes this genre so appealing?  What does it require for success?  Right now I'm not talking about finishing, I'm talking and finishing fast.  I'm talking racing, not fast touring.  When you get to the finish you greet your empty parking lot with total exhaustion knowing you gave it everything you had.

My answer:  mental strength and confidence.  The confidence to push yourself to that point just before the edge, the mental strength to keep pushing once the abyss looms.  Jefe knows what I'm laying down, he's seems more comfortable with that view than anyone.  Getting SPOT data relayed, while out in the boonies, to gain that bit of mental strength (or soul crushing news...) is artificial stimulus.  It does not come from within.  It is outside support - mental support.

The information is either in the public domain or it is not.  IMO, we are either totally cut off from the outside world, or we accept that we are still a part of it.  I don't see what the big worry is -- you still have to pedal the bike, and no amount of info on where Owen Murphy is will make it so I can catch him.

Sure - last year.  But next year what if it is close?  What if you take your fitness to new heights (like go live in Nederland for a year) and challenge him?

Maybe I'm still just peeved you kept waking me up at CTR   But seriously, trackleaders.com is a change that you are grossly underestimating.  I'm beating you over the head with it because you can't see it.  If this is the new skool way of endurance racing, so be it.  But it is something else and less self-reliant, and I do not condone that trend.

[mnmtb]

I must be really stupid.  Could you translate this?

I A theme of the CTR is " what if a thousand people did what you did". Don`t mess with peoples marbles, carry an inhaler and shop where you want to see growth.

Am I welcome to partake in this event or an outsider who is not welcome?

[Mathewsen]

You were excited about *everyones* whereabouts, not just mine...But, it absolutely, irrevocably, changes the game.
Stefan could have called Maggie [kurt's girlfriend] for some mojo uplift and beta?  Seriously, you don't see how this is outside support?

re. outside support, it all depends on how we define/measure outside support. what about GPS nav used to determine one's own whereabouts? is that not outside (satellite) support? Less self-reliant? is it OK to download a track to navigate that you did not generate yourself? Has GPS not already irrevocably changed self-support racing, self-reliance in general?

SPOT tracking changes aren't irrevocable; privatizing data, night time tracking blackouts, rules (like iditarod has) against using tracking data to strategize. there's plenty of ways to eliminate it as a factor. in `08, Iphones were blocked from accessing TD tracking data. controlling those data is not hard if that's what we decide is best. just like the SPOT tracking imbroglio in alaska last winter, it's not the fact that we are gathering data that is a problem, it's how/if it's regulated.

when i conceived of tracking for TD08, it was 2005. i was racing GDR. i wanted a way to animate the event for my family, my sponsors, spectators and to graph each competitor's ride for the books. improved safety was not a factor. improved strategizing was unintended. as someone in this thread pointed out (at least for some events), there's better split info available on the ground--is that outside support, or just trail magic? for that matter, racing en masse from a common start time is a form of outside support--or could it have the opposite effect if you go too hard to mark a faster rider then blow-up? Hard to say. fellow ITTers are carrots like anything else. perhaps self-support group racing is something less than pure solo-self-support ITTs and ought be called as much, treated separately from the original solo efforts that inspired it all.

[DaveH]

At the end of the day, am I curious where everyone is?  Sure!  Pre-SPOT, I would have had to fall asleep wondering, but now racers tell the world where they are.  Internet access on newer phones provides a whole new source of information, so I think in the end it's going to have to come down to one of three rules:

(1) Phones are allowed for verbal communication only, but spectators can't do anything to affect the outcome of the race other than providing moral support.
(2) Any type of phone is allowed.  Use tracking from any source as you want.  If you don't want to be tracked, don't use a SPOT
(3) Phones are allowed for emergency use only.  Use it and DQ yourself.

...

Those are my thoughts.  It simply comes down to the fact that I want to ride my bike, ride for a while longer, and explore new places.  Doing it fast and breaking records is a bonus, but that's not what drives me, and it shouldn't be what drives anyone else doing ultras.  If you can't finish as fast as you want without planning to rely solely on yourself and what's available to everyone else out there, then you really shouldn't be setting out in the first place.

Great thoughts Kurt, welcome to the party.  As painful as parts of this thread are, it does bring to light some fast changing aspects of the genre.  Its high time we address them.

Here's a question for all:  what is a legitimate use for a cell phone within a race?  

I can think of some other possibilities in your list.

4) cell phones are allowed but their use is limited to certain regions of the course, namely towns.  Locations established by race organizer.
5) engaging in two-way communication via any personal device are disallowed.  two-way communication examples (not allowed):  iPhone requesting SPOT page, cell phone call, checking voicemail messages. One-way communication examples (allowed): SPOT use, GPS use, sending a text message (so long as it is not arranging support).
6) a combination of 4 and 5 - any devices ok in towns.

Limiting topics of conversation is hard to imagine, I wouldn't want to go down that road.

[DaveH]

Wow, thanks for injecting a lot of new ideas into the discussion Matthew.  Food for thought while I go roost around Little Creek.

[DaNM]

I must be really stupid.  Could you translate this?


Am I welcome to partake in this event or an outsider who is not welcome?

Yer welcome of course. Translation; If 1000 people tread lightly, use no services` and have minimal interactions with others, it would be as if we did not exist. On the other hand, 1000 people can have a big impact by camping, shopping and just plain being there.
 No one here would say you are not welcome. Where are you from? Lots of advice is to be had in these threads and getting all ones marbles lined up is half the battle.
  P.M and call me up for more babble about it if you want, but talk is cheap, back to back to back  century rides x3 is my best advice.

[ScottM]

You were excited about *everyones* whereabouts, not just mine (as the first rider in front of you).  As the creator of trackleaders.com, I get it.  I'd be stoked too. 

This is a good point -- I am excited about using my own creation.  In that sense I agree I am biased.  However, for races in general (esp. ones I am not in) it doesn't make any difference to me whether racers can use it or not out there.  The primary use is spectators, clearly.

Stefan could have called Maggie for some mojo uplift and beta?  Seriously, you don't see how this is outside support? 

Right, and you agreed that calling LW, whether from payphone or cell phone is also outside support.  Yet you aren't arguing that that be banned. 

We've been through this before, and I find your argument hollow, in other words.  I am not saying there isn't a good argument for not allowing SPOT talk out there, you just haven't found it.

My answer:  mental strength and confidence.  The confidence to push yourself to that point just before the edge, the mental strength to keep pushing once the abyss looms.  Jefe knows what I'm laying down, he's seems more comfortable with that view than anyone.  Getting SPOT data relayed, while out in the boonies, to gain that bit of mental strength (or soul crushing news...) is artificial stimulus.  It does not come from within.  It is outside support - mental support.

It sounds more and more to me like the root of your issue is with the group ITT setting.  IMO, the kind of 'artificial stimulus' you are talking about here is far more impacted by lining up with 40+ racers than the fact that you might occasionally be able to get info on where they are.  In other words, if you want to talk about the purity of cloistered individual mental fortitude, my response is: "do an ITT."  Even without SPOT or cell phones, I knew you were just ahead of me, I knew Owen Murphy was well ahead of me, I knew people like Brian Taylor were not far behind.  And the motivation you/I got from riding with or near others was huge.  Far more than the tiny bit of extra artificiality we got from checking in on the tracker.

Maybe I'm still just peeved you kept waking me up at CTR  

It does seem to be a sore spot (90 minutes?!  Please!).  On an ITT there's no one to wake you up. 

[Mathewsen]

[re. cell phone ethics], Limiting topics of conversation is hard to imagine, I wouldn't want to go down that road.

i tend to agree. it only creates more moral dilemmas. just as allowing them to be carried but banning their use does. if you allow a phone to be carried, then you're admitting there is at least some scenario in which it's OK to use it (DQ or not). IMO, that's "going down that road". it's much easier to simply allow their use for whatever. it takes time away from riding to use them anyway, which is just another trapping.

[Marshal]

KISS is often best

Spot’s and Cell Phones: nothing is ever simple but Nothing Required, Nothing Prohibited really is—simple that is

One of the things I like about the self supported genre is the simplicity.  To me simple rules, clearly stated, have a certain elegance to them, just like the ride itself. 

Sopt’s:
I think the major (admittedly not all) of Dave’s concerns about ‘racing’ vs ‘fast touring’ can be addressed by simply not carrying a Spot (or not making the track public) ie: Nothing Required

All of the other concerns like maintaining contact with loved ones, possible safety, fun & entertainment etc are covered under the simple rule, ie: Nothing Prohibited  so if you want to use a Spot and make your track public you can.

Cell Phones:
As for racers who would cheat and use a cell phone to provide them self’s with some type of actual “pre-arranged support”, well that’s already covered by the fundamental rule –ie: no pre-arranged support, it really doesn’t matter “how” you did it, it’s not allowed, with or with out a cell phone! Only our individual sense of ‘honor’ is upholding this most basic of rules, not the physical possession of a cell phone.

So after ‘pre-arranged support’ what’s left?  Well not much really---

Gathering tactical data on an opponent??  This is a minor issue imo, especially if the other guy was concerned enough to not use, or turn off his/her Spot

Getting moral support over a cell phone from your significant other?? Minor minor issue in the big picture imo

Getting real time weather info with your cell phone??  Ok this is potentially a real advantage but one that’s available to all if they really think it is that important – so level field—so no issue imo

Left something out? Am I missing something really basic or important?? If so just apply the ‘Nothing Required, Nothing Prohibited’ rule and tell/show how it makes a significant impact on this race format.