Rules?

[Pivvay]

DH,
I only maintain that the cell phone issue is relevant because of your objection to "on trail" mojo calling and SPOT data gathering as outside assistance. If you can't call, then is there an issue still? Once you're in town, all is fair? That may be something I can personally agree with regardless of where the rules go. I mean would could play the what does "in town" game mean but that's minor.

The GDR still exists, though it appears to be currently unpopular. Nevertheless I felt I had to go without a phone to make a point this past year. I'm sure in the future that distinction will be less.

[DaveH]

DH,
I only maintain that the cell phone issue is relevant because of your objection to "on trail" mojo calling and SPOT data gathering as outside assistance. If you can't call, then is there an issue still? Once you're in town, all is fair? That may be something I can personally agree with regardless of where the rules go. I mean would could play the what does "in town" game mean but that's minor.

That's certainly one possibility.  It's tricky though as there are more ways than just a cell phone by which to access trackleaders info.

For a certainty, if a ruleset were up to me (TU), if paypones were OK then cell phones in towns would be fine, and texting with a cell phone (like Troy did this year) would be fine anywhere.  More than likely the ruleset for TU will be wide open.  I hate rules.

[Pivvay]

What other ways? I mean I consider 3G on an iPhone still to be using a cell phone. I'd also consider texting to be using a cell phone. Plus texts get through when calls don't making communication easier. Or are you saying texts can only go out, not in?

[DaveH]

I listed a few up thread...trying to recall what I wrote - SPOT stalker friends and iPhones come to mind.  Technology will always be moving forward, enough so to make banning specific gizmos unrealistic.  If it was decided that SPOT intel was not to be used by riders during an event, the rule should state that explicitly, rather than ban a specific device.  I'm sure there are more technological methods that could work on the trackleaders end.  It'll take some creativity.  Honestly, I'd be fine with just saying don't access it and leaving it at that.  This whole thing is honor based anyway, right?

2-way comms are objectionable between towns in my interpretation of the ethos.  Texting is one way - from the user POV might as well be talking to the trees   So long as that text is not arranging a hotel room! 

[Pivvay]

You can get a text message back though can't you? Just really slow 2 way comm? Or are you thinking about it from the "hey person at home, i'm at the cool water pump taking a nap" with no reply from the other end perspective? If so then a SPOT basically does the same thing IMO.

It would be pretty clear in my mind to say "no cellular tech between towns". It'd be on your honor but so is everything else. That would encompass crappy pay as you go phones like I have, computers with a data card, iPhones, blackberry's, whatever. Leave it in your pack unless you're in a town.

Isn't part of SPOT's beauty to be for both spectators and the racers the fact that it IS truly only one way? The SPOT isn't the problem, it's finding out what the SPOT said that's the problem. And if you're against emotional support between towns, then banning cells would solve both issues. I mean what else could you accomplish by calling the outside world that couldn't then be considered support under that interpretation.

I think SPOT stalking would be best dealt with separately.

[DaveH]

We're getting ahead of ourselves here I think.  There isn't any sort of agreement on what constitutes a legitimate, fair set of self-supported racing rules.  Your points are delving pretty deep into the finer aspects.

That said, my concept with the "texting" being ok was to make an allowance for things like Troy's pseudo-spot, or to let a concerned loved one know that you are OK, again something that can be done with the SPOT.

I'd put the rule more as "no 2 way communications between towns", which admittedly has more room for grey area.  Unless you've got a really crafty use for texting (like Troy) the rules will have identical meanings.

Chris, what do you think about ditching cell use between towns?  Sounds like thus far it has been a non-issue as you haven't carried one.
 

[Pivvay]

My arguments were solely directed at maintaining SPOT tracking, which I like, and maintaining a strict sense of "self support", perhaps stricter than we've had lately. I'm okay with just saying you can't get SPOT data remotely, regardless of cell phone rules but that seems to put a burden on race outsiders which is not ideal. Then again, my wife is well aware of the rules and knows what is allowed and not allowed and really she's the only person I ever call baring a mechanical failure and a call to a bike shop or something.

I wouldn't object to no cell use between towns so long as I can carry a SPOT. My loved ones need to know that I'm alright and that I have some potential to signal for help should a serious emergency occur. Beyond that I have no problems with "town only" neutral areas for all phone use. Messing around with extra weight, batteries, chargers, finding reception and paying for "better" cell service has less appeal to me than resetting the tracking on my SPOT once a day. I suppose I pay the price of time spent finding a phone in town but i'm usually patronizing a store or restaurant which if they don't have a pay phone have been willing to allow me to use a land line or cellphone and my calling card. I really don't care if people yak on their cell phone whenever during the race either but can concede that it is another level of support to accept or reject.

[DaveH]

Gotcha.  We're on the same page.  I would never support a complete ban on SPOT use.  I'm not fond of them for my own use but that's a personal choice and I'll likely end up carrying one anyway.  It isn't for me...similar to your use.

[Slowerthensnot]

depends on how the picture was created...was it printed thru a commercial "outside" source like Kinko's, or is it a water color tinted w/ local berries and flowers on rice paper or a reed scroll which you yourself made? 

LOL!!!

[krefs]

I think the 'no cell phones between towns' is the best solution for this quandary.  As we've clearly established that none of these events are truly raced (with the possible exception of the GLR if you don't restock/call friends in Bedrock) self-supported.  Towns are common grounds for whatever racers need, and I think allowing cell phone usage there makes complete sense, especially in this age of vanishing coin-op phones.

If a consensus can actually be reached on this, or if any individual race organizers decide this is the way to go, a few details to consider:

- How far in to town does a rider need to go to use a phone?  Within sight?  Within the incorporated city limits? What if the route comes in to town on a dirt road that doesn't have a city limits sign?  At least as far as the first services available? If a town is off route, a rider doesn't require resupply but is desperately curious where the nearest riders are...

- How is a 'town' defined?  Official towns only (Buena Vista, CO or Tuscon, AZ)?  Any place where services are available (Roosville Crossing, MT or that road-side stand selling vittles at a cross-roads)?  Any [un]incorporated village with a population/elevation listed on a green sign along the road (Vallecitos, NM or Whitehorn, CO)?

Obviously I'm picking at details, but I like this solution to the cell phone issue, and it sounds like more than a few of us might be able to agree on it...

 

[Marshal]

Humm, so it’s ok to get real time info about an other racer as long as we get said info in a ‘Town’?  And the reason this makes sense is because “Towns” are where we already go to get ‘physical’ support?

I personally think a ‘town only’ rule is sort of splitting hairs, but if there were such a rule how about this for a simple rule:

You can only use your cell phone at a commercial establishment.

 ie: someplace that sells some type of ‘support', stuff like food, hotel rooms, bike parts, baby wipes etc.  Actually ‘buying’ something is optional.

Clean & Simple yes?

Ps: MC is probably laughing his head off  if he reads this thread

[tRoy]

Dear Ultra Distance Mountain-Bike Race Directors,
Please only one rule.  I want to compare myself to everyone and everystyle.  I want them to compare themeselves to me.  Please expand your race nexus to one rule!

Complete the ENTIRE route under your own HUMAN power. 

[ScottM]

I respect your idealism, but, you want to compare yourself to someone that has a car with warm food, spare parts, easy bail out, etc, waiting at every road crossing?  Someone that doesn't even carry basic bivy gear, or a spare tube?

I'll pass on that.  Support crews and caches are not something I want to get into or compare myself with.

But otherwise, I don't care if someone has a blue tooth in their ear and they are talking to NASA mission control 24 hours a day while they ride.  There's very little someone can do from 100's of miles away.

[ScottM]

Humm, so it’s ok to get real time info about an other racer as long as we get said info in a ‘Town’?  And the reason this makes sense is because “Towns” are where we already go to get ‘physical’ support?

Yeah, I thought most of the objections were against SPOT intel in general.

You can only use your cell phone at a commercial establishment.

I still prefer the simplicity of not mentioning it at all (free speech as Jill put it).  Then racers don't have to deal with fuzzy concepts like what a "town" is.

But it's really not a big issue for me -- I don't need to check in on trackers from on the trail.  I don't need to get 'emotional support' on trail.  I just don't see a good reason to ban it.

Ps: MC is probably laughing his head off  if he reads this thread

I think he's just shrugging his shoulders.

[DaveH]

Awhile back I asked a simple question that went unanswered:

What is a valid use for a cell phone in a self-supported event?

Troy's one-way text as pseudo-SPOT is the only one I can come up with.  Any others?

[DaveH]

The simplest implementation of a "town only" rule that comes to mind is to designate areas of the course - up to the race promoter, IOW. 

For example, in TU I'd lay down waypoints that delineated acceptable cell phone regions.  It would take me about 3 minutes.  It would require a bit more thought for TD but it's workable.

No fuzzy boundaries required.

[krefs]

I'm not sure there is any valid non-emergency use of cell phones in an event that is truly self-supported.  

But then again, if it's truly self-supported, riders shouldn't be able to call anyone by any means.  Either we accept that in these events, riders are self-supported but allowed to utilize whatever is available to everyone or we ban outside support all together and force everyone to lug around a trailer full of food and a spare drivetrain.  No one wants this (except MC), and we've already been through this several pages of posts ago.

Dave, I can't figure out if you're against cell phones, talking to the outside world, or simply the transmission of tracking data to riders.  Or are you just playing devil's advocate between spurts of getting work done?

[Pivvay]

What about business calls? Nothing to do with the race, might be necessary for life outside a race if you're a doctor or small business owner.

I've never made them and doubt I ever would but can foresee that others might.

[krefs]

There could be a moral boost if your business associate wishes you an enthusiastic "You're where?!  Been riding for how long?? Way to go, man!  Keep it up!"

There's no way to partially isolate yourself from the outside world...

[Pivvay]

Sure there could I agree. But what if there isn't? Then it's a phone call out that isn't outside support.