Rules?

[bmike-vt]

What about meeting family... in towns only?
I'm thinking TD.

Does it have to be a surprise, or can it be pre-planned so long as there is no support - no goodie bags from home, no spare parts, etc?
How does that play out?

Would love to see the wife and little one along the way (but I'm still 3-4 years out on getting to the start).
Or is that moral and emotional support?

[ScottM]

This is a good one to discuss.  My take on how it's been interpreted in the past: not encouraged, but not frowned upon either.

No question it's "outside support", likely more than any phone call could be.  But I think, and this is my take on it only, is that it's allowed because banning completely would be unreasonable.  There's no million dollars on the line, and esp. if the route goes through where a friend lives, I don't see enough of a benefit to it so as to ban it completely.  Likely it slows you down, if anything.

I don't think it matters if it's in town or not -- no physical support from your friends should be allowed regardless of where you are.  And the only other thing is that, IMO, it should be allowed once (per spectator) per race.  Having your SO leapfrog you, even if only in towns, and even with no physical support, is taking it too far, I think.

Other opinions?

[DaveH]

Well let's see now.  

Being ready to race:  I can't say it any better than the GDR and AZT300 rule set.

People: please don't bring The Race down to your level--elevate yourself to the
level of The Race.  If you find yourself looking for loopholes, consider taking
another year to prepare before racing.  Most likely you'll go faster and enjoy
it more as a result.

There is a lot more relevant stuff above that paragraph, link:  http://topofusion.com/azt/race-rules.php

GDR is the same (I think) but has a complete cell phone ban.

In any case, not all races have the same rules.  AZT300 allows full cell phone use, GDR does not.  You have to know, understand, and accept to race by the rules for your chosen race.  Until you can do that you just are not ready for the commitment deemed appropriate by the race promoter.  Visualizing breaking rules as you do here is sure way to guarantee you will do so.  Visualize success, not failure.  Look where you want to go, not at the big ugly rock on the side of the trail, eh?

On the mechanical assistance:  another old timer story here <grin>.  On my first Grand Loop Race I was at the Bedrock store.  These guys from Preskit college were there with a van load of kayaks, passing through for some fun on the Dolores.  We got chatting, they were curious about the dirtbag biker.  Then, one guy presents an orange to me.  Now, I thought this was strictly forbidden - so had to hand it back to him.  I have a real soft spot for orange, fresh fruit in general and it gets amplified on the trail - my mouth was watering for that orange and I'm pretty sure he caught some spittle in the crossfire.  He kept pressing it in my hand and finally I had to get forceful...and get out of there before I caved. A long time later I related the story to MC (the real old timer in these parts) and he just chuckled.  The orange was a gift, it was not pre-planned, and it was perfectly fine to accept it.

Scott already explained the situation - but basically I was working on the wheel and he came along and decided to help.  It was his choice to offer help, and of course I was happy he did.  In the end I could see it was not fixable and I asked  him to get going.  It was a real bummer, that wheel - we were having a great time riding together.

In essence:  you can help your fellow racer should you choose to do so.  The rules do not state you have to be a jerk.  The rules also don't mandate being a nice guy.  It's up to you.

Does that clear it up for you?

[krefs]

Toby - good points all around.  

Dave has mentioned, the influence talking to someone on the phone can have during a low point in your race can be phenomenal.  If we want to try to minimize outside support, restricting phone calls between towns is probably the best approach.  This will probably be clearer after you spend 3+ days out on one of these routes.

And odds are in the CTR, there won't be a lot of places outside of towns where you have cell reception anyway, so I doubt it'd be that much of a professional inconvenience to only be able to take/return business calls once a day instead of twice a day.  Or would it?  I guess I'm making an assumption there.

As for accepting things from other racers, that's something I'm not a fan of.  Sharing/trading a candy bar or a few salty chips is one thing, but giving someone a spare derailleur hanger, new brake pads, or an albuterol inhaler is in a very different realm.  Yes, it's up to the person doing the giving to decide whether or not they want to do so, but the next guy/gal back who is chasing hard doesn't have a say in it.  Moral support of riding together is great, but I think sharing gear in a way that will affect the outcome of the race, even if unplanned, should not be allowed. Also, the rider doing the giving might see it as helping his/her own chances if they can fix the bike of a person they've been riding with - more moral support/camaraderie for longer.  Stefan says this pretty clearly in his CTR rules.  The Tour Divide rules are also clear: "Drafting and sharing of equipment or supplies are prohibited."  I think this stance should be adopted by all race organizers.  If you didn't carry it, forsee needing it, or anticipate wanting it, you'll just have to wait until the next town to try to get it.

bmike brings up a point I was thinking about when I was drifting off to sleep last night.  It is always great to see friends/family along the course in races like these.  I've only had the pleasure in the TD, when two different friends unexpectedly showed up and rode with me between Dillon and Breck, and then Maggie drove up to Salida and met me there.  For most races I think meetings should be permitted in towns only.  In the Divide, it's so much fun to have someone you know out there to ride with you for a tiny fraction of the distance, but how is that any different from making a phone call to talk to someone and get a boost that way?  I don't think it is.  For any races that restrict communication with the outside world between towns, I think seeing/riding with friends or family should also not be permitted between towns.  

I see Scott posted a reply while I was typing this...I like his once/person suggestion for seeing friends along the way.  Being away from loved ones is an enormous mental strain, especially for long races like the Divide.  The Italians probably wouldn't be too happy if you saw your SO every other day when they didn't get to once.  But then again, they didn't take to fondly to the idea of having to push their bikes through snow...

[krefs]

Oh, and Dave, I like the TU communication rule you outlined.  Simple enough, and fits with what we've been slowly getting at.

[bmike-vt]

I don't think it matters if it's in town or not -- no physical support from your friends should be allowed regardless of where you are.  And the only other thing is that, IMO, it should be allowed once (per spectator) per race.  Having your SO leapfrog you, even if only in towns, and even with no physical support, is taking it too far, I think.

Other opinions?

sure, if i decide to 'tour' it, leapfrogging to every other town might work... but the wife might not want to be in the car with a 5 year old driving all over the place to see da-da. so i might be SOL regardless.

but for the event, i see it as being a nice way to still share some time with family, if only for a few hours, kiss the little one, hugs, etc. likely will be too tired and focused for much of anything else.

i figure if i get to stand around at marathons and tri's... holding the little one, playing chasies... perhaps i'll get some payback.
but i've got a long long way to go.

this feeds into the cell phone issue... as i think they can be similar.

[bmike-vt]

yeah - i'd have to say as much as i know i could convince friends to come out and ride with me in the 'friendlier' parts of the TD - to me this should be against the rules, esp. if we are talking about banning cell use between towns for that 'mental' edge. way more boost than a phone call to see the buddies, laugh, ride fast, change it up...


[snark]
and as i was drifting off to sleep - i was wondering if meditating / praying / chanting to the diety of your choice should be limited to towns only (or publicly listed zen centers, churches, synagogues, temples...) as for some, this is clearly way outside support (or are we only discussing earthly support?)
[/snark]

[DaveH]

As for accepting things from other racers, that's something I'm not a fan of.  Sharing/trading a candy bar or a few salty chips is one thing, but giving someone a spare derailleur hanger, new brake pads, or an albuterol inhaler is in a very different realm.  Yes, it's up to the person doing the giving to decide whether or not they want to do so, but the next guy/gal back who is chasing hard doesn't have a say in it.  

That's an interesting aspect I hadn't thought of.  Still, lots of shades of grey unless all sharing is banned, including riding together.

Kinda brings to the forefront the group ITT naming paradox.

[ScottM]

As for accepting things from other racers, that's something I'm not a fan of.  Sharing/trading a candy bar or a few salty chips is one thing, but giving someone a spare derailleur hanger, new brake pads, or an albuterol inhaler is in a very different realm.  Yes, it's up to the person doing the giving to decide whether or not they want to do so, but the next guy/gal back who is chasing hard doesn't have a say in it.  Moral support of riding together is great, but I think sharing gear in a way that will affect the outcome of the race, even if unplanned, should not be allowed. Also, the rider doing the giving might see it as helping his/her own chances if they can fix the bike of a person they've been riding with - more moral support/camaraderie for longer.  Stefan says this pretty clearly in his CTR rules.  The Tour Divide rules are also clear: "Drafting and sharing of equipment or supplies are prohibited."  I think this stance should be adopted by all race organizers.  If you didn't carry it, forsee needing it, or anticipate wanting it, you'll just have to wait until the next town to try to get it.

I see your point, Kurt, and the purist in me would like to agree, but I think sharing stuff, even mechanical / gear / tools, should be fair game.  I don't want to be in the business of discouraging a human quality that is already discouraged / ignored enough in the world (that of helping one another out).  I don't want to fight that urge and don't want to encourage others to either.  I think we are taking ourselves far too seriously if the goal (race placing / purity of self-support) overrides this.

Plus I look at it as what benefit could any rider reasonably expect to get from this?  You still have to plan to be self sufficient because the chance that someone will be there to bail you out with the right gear or know-how is very slim indeed.  You can throw out an example where it completely bailed someone out, but that doesn't change that, on average, the effect on the 'race' is very small.

Outside self support?  Yep.  Reasonable to ban it?  No, not in my opinion.

[DaveH]

Well said Scott.  We are in full agreement on this one  

By the very act of lining up with others we are accepting (and choosing) the benefits that come with riding with others.  Motivation is at the top of the list, but where to draw that line is fuzzy.  I think the line has to do with intent.  Pre-arranged sharing of gear is a no-no but once the race starts it's all good.

[Done]

Hi Dave,

I disagree that "visualizing breaking rules" is some sort of "guarantee" that someone will indeed break rules, any more than visualizing a flat tire will actually result in getting a flat tire. Indeed, the opposite is true: If I think through all details of the race, and plan accordingly, I'm actually likely to perform better. This is something that has worked well in the mountains, which are a hell of a lot less forgiving and committing than any solo mountain-biking race out there. There is no way that a thorough analysis of worst-case conditions, ethics, rules, etc. is bringing ANYTHING down to my level.

The wheel example is different from the inhaler example. I understand that Scott didn't actually give you anything tangible while helping you with the wheel, so that it arguably different than the inhaler. Unless a specific race director specifies otherwise, I'd certainly offer advice to someone attempting to fix a broken part (unless the rider doesn't want it). And I suppose that I might accept such assistance--or at least I wouldn't turn it  down purely based on the rules.

So, how about the inhaler? Should I offer or accept similar tangible objects? Let's say that I tweak an ankle, and someone offers me an ace bandage because I didn't bring one? OK, or relegate? We're talking about the CTR here, but I'd be curious if your events would be any different? Again, I'm not picking on you, just trying to understand how the ideal of "self support" and specific rules apply to different situations. it's helpful to analyze historical precedents when figuring this out, which is the only reason that I am specifically referencing your situation.

I'm curious that it's up to the race director to determine whether a rider us up to the level of commitment deemed appropriate. I'd argue that it's up to the rider to figure this out for themselves. And I think that rules--such as blanket cell phone bans--that don't actually alter the level of commitment are certainly odder yet. Can we agree that, to use Chris's example, helping a colleague fix a server problem is less likely to affect race dynamics than accepting an ace bandage from another rider?

Based on the ideals of self-sufficiency, personal responsibility, bad-ass competitive effort, historical precedence, etc., I really don't see how a judicious use of a cell phone is going to destroy the integrity of ultra racing...

[DaveH]

You can disagree all you like - just abide by the rules of the event you choose to do.

The inhaler was like the orange.

Races are different than ITTs.  You won't see me banning one rider helping another - that's counter to human decency.

I think you just like to argue...

[Done]

I just read Scott's and Dave's agreement that sharing stuff between riders is OK. Not sure how I feel about that, and I'll reserve judgment until getting a few rides under my belt. I'll be curious if the CTR rules are changed to reflect that position or not. I assume that the  rule was put in place for a reason, probably to reflect a stricter interpretation of the ideal of self-reliance. Based on the comments in this thread, this particular rule didn't receive 100% compliance anyway.

I think that it's curious that a rule is being added to eliminate judicious cell phone usage in the name of a "purer" self-reliant riding style, while a different rule that imposes a greater degree of self-reliance is being diminished/eliminated.

[Done]

"I think you just like to argue..."

Cut some slack, Dave. Please stop trying to diminish this discussion by reducing it to personal slights and attacks.

I think that an inhaler is pretty different than an orange. But I'm not pushing you to justify your decision to accept it; I'm just using it as a real-world example to illustrate how different rules (and their application) may or may not affect racing. If you prefer, we can continue to use the ace bandage example--it's similar enough that we can push back into the abstract.

[DaveH]

Toby - you are making harsh judgments right after saying you wouldn't.  You have already accused "many" of cheating.  Now you are specifically pointing a finger at Scott and I (again).  This is why you get branded a troll.

The CTR rule clarification in question is this:  "However, this is a solo competition - racers may not draft each other nor plan on sharing gear"  There was no plan to share gear.  Where is the non-compliance?

You are not in a position to judge, so don't.

[krefs]

Dave, I've got to agree with Toby here.  Borrowing something from a racer that allows you to continue with the race where you might have had to drop out or spend significant time repairing a broken bike or body changes the outcome of the race.  Can we agree on that?  That was one of your primary complaints about racers receiving real-time tracking data - it might alter the outcome.  I whole-heartedly agree with that argument of yours. 

I think Stefan's rules are clearly in agreement with my stance if you read both sentences in the section: "racers may not draft each other nor plan on sharing gear. Companionship, and likely some additional competitive motivation, are the only things racers traveling together may provide each other."  While I can appreciate your and Scott's opinion that helping fellow racers out in times of need runs in line with the spirit of this community, I think it has far too much of an impact on the outcome of races, even if it is unplanned.

[Pivvay]

On the meeting of family thing:
I think it's definitely slower but definitely mental/emotional assistance which we can also get over the phone. I did it in the TD this year but have never really needed it in shorter events. Three weeks was a long time for me. While Marni didn't leapfrog me down the course (even though maybe we would have liked that, haha), she did see me in Kremmling late at night. When she arrived I was already sleeping and I probably only saw here for an hour total other than sleeping next to her. The next day I saw her briefly while I ate lunch in Breck on our joint way to Salida. In Salida we were able to catch a very late dinner together, spend the night in a hotel and catch breakfast while waiting for Absolute to open to repair and prepare my bike for the last ~1000 miles. She laughed as I hauled a box of stuff by bike to send home, the very place she was going, because we both knew it against the rules for me to just give her the box. At the very end, I saw her in Silver City, only because she needed a hotel room to sleep in for the night before picking me up at the border and I needed some food and a nap before the final push. Dinner of pizza hut pasta and cold drinks (all of which I hauled by bike) was our mini celebration knowing that I was going to finish this darn thing. I actually had to wait around at Walmart for a little while until she got there but I knew I had it in the bag (finally...) and used the time to call my family who I hadn't really spoken too all race.

I mention all this only because it's allowed in the current rules and we were both extremely careful not to do anything to break them. I wouldn't let her get me water or food, I wouldn't let her pay for anything, I made all the hotel reservations in person, I wouldn't accept a massage or even let her hold my bike while I lubed the chain. Physically I made sure to do everything as if she was not there at all.  Others have stated that such meetings are emotional support. I can't disagree.

If meetings were banned from the start I could probably do without though that's gotten easier as I've got more experience in these races.They're certain to slow a racer down. I know Matt wanted to potentially discuss this for the future so that's fine with me. I also know it's been done in the past for the GDR with no DQ. The question is just if people are unhappy with the current rules or if they need to be tightened down somehow. I know for the Grand Loop or AZT 300, having any sort of support person "out there" was certainly frowned upon. Thoughts?

[ScottM]

Dave, I've got to agree with Toby here.  Borrowing something from a racer that allows you to continue with the race where you might have had to drop out or spend significant time repairing a broken bike or body changes the outcome of the race.  Can we agree on that?  That was one of your primary complaints about racers receiving real-time tracking data - it might alter the outcome.  I whole-heartedly agree with that argument of yours. 

We already allow many things that might alter the outcome -- meeting folks along the route, trail magic, phone calls from town, etc.  Just riding with someone (who is in the race) is not self support and definitely alters the outcome -- in a very huge way.

I understand your position is that it can have a large impact on the race, but I don't agree.  Other things already allowed have a bigger impact (riding with other racers), so I think there has to be more of an argument than that.  Esp. to have it override the 'good samaritan' concept I introduced above.

[Done]

Hi Scott,

I'm not saying, and I don't think that Kurt's post says, that the "good Samaritan" concept should be eliminated, just that it is likely to alter the outcome of a race much the way that Spot tracking could. Races would surely be different if either is allowed or disallowed.

I've been trying to juxtapose those types of game-changing rules with the proposed cell-phone ban. With halfway careful use, cell phones are extremely unlikely to alter a race's outcome. So why ban them, but then allow one or both of the other rules?

[dkirk]

Hey Dave,
Great discussion all. In regards to TU, the rules are just right. Really, as the organizer, you get to decide. If I don't like the rules, I don't race. End of story.
When riding it this year, I did check in calls from Cedar City, Long Junction, and Tropic. I would have done one from Powell Point but it was too darn c-c-c-old.