Rules?

[dream4est]

Do you think tightening the rules will change that mentality?  Does the prime directive of no pre-planned support fall apart somewhere?

Good point. It could have little or no effect. But it seems that too many people is not a good thing for these "races" as at a certain point the "riot/looter" effect happens. You know where people who normally are good go nuts and steal a tv set because everyone else is doing it.

Tighter rules and adding length/difficulty seems to be the only way to stop it IMO.

I really think we need harder races to discourage shenanigans and entrants just there to soak up the 15 minutes so to speak. If I can finish the CTR 09 it is too easy. I basically suck at this sport (2 for 6 lifetime with 3 CT's and 3 Grand Loop attempts. Neither finish time on CT impressive. I might have walked 150 miles in 09). Maybe this discussion can help start the ultimate bikepacking "race". You know what I am speaking of. The CDNST. With wilderness detours ala the CTR. Border to border. I would be down if some brave soul could map out/describe the route with detours.

I would rather do that than line up with 60 people with blogs and I-phones.

Mark C.

[DaveH]

as i understand it, its not to be chummy. it's specifically to compete against the course under equal circumstances, be that climatology, specific weather, hours for commercial services, trail angel opps., whatever. MC made it pretty clear b/f the `04 divide it wasn't really in the name of camaraderie. we couldn't even get him to drink a beer with us.

Try ice cream next time.  He can't say no to that.

But seriously, that was 5 years ago, and MCs intentions of that race don't really figure into any race I've been to.  Things have changed a lot since then.  MC knows it too - and realized he couldn't maintain the original spirit of these events with the growing interest taking place.  Get a bunch of riders to line up together for a start and it's a race.  Human behavior. 

now THAT is hairsplitting split hairs!

Actually, I think it is a great example.  Seeing other riders in the midst of questionable behavior according to the rules is a mojo killer.  Mark's recent posts highlight this quite well.

i'm sorry, can you clarify impact on what/which faction? on that group-start edition's results, or impact on the the ITTer in comparison to the group-starters?

isn't the question whether or not group-starts provide so much impetus to racers as to disadvantage the ITTer?

My position I think is obvious based on my clarifications to Chris - the majority of riders I have coached and been privy to their power data perform at their potential (or at least perform at their best) when racing with others.  So:  racing with others enables many riders to ride better than they could have done solo.  Some won't.  Races are just different than ITTs.

not if all's you want out of it is to compete under equal climatology, weather, circumstances.

That's an idealist/purist outlook.  It's not the way it pans out in reality though.  No amount of rule making is going to force that outlook on competitors either.

[Stefan_G]

My position I think is obvious based on my clarifications to Chris - the majority of riders I have coached and been privy to their power data perform at their potential (or at least perform at their best) when racing with others.  So:  racing with others enables many riders to ride better than they could have done solo.  Some won't.  Races are just different than ITTs.

Agreed:  races are different than ITTs.  But as you state: for some, but not all.  IMO, our ruleset should allow those that fall into your group of not performing better in a race setting to still have a fair shot at a course record by doing an ITT. 

[SteveW]

While I don’t think it entirely helpful to throw ‘possible’, ‘maybe’, and ‘if’, scenarios out there. One dilemma that actually came up for me this year in the Tour Divide was sharing medical drugs for a sick rider. Erik Lobeck, a guy I’d ridden loosely with for nearly three weeks fell ill with food poisoning in Pie Town, only 300 miles from the finish. I carry drugs for giardia and antibiotics for food poising, however it’s only a two day supply, and I’d used them out of the Great Divide Basin when I got sick myself. However I knew Alan Goldsmith carried some, as before we flew out I’d shared the supply I had with him. I expected the rules were that if I asked Alan to give Erik the drugs, and Erik used the drugs, both guys would be DQ’ed. And what if Alan got sick a few hours later and had given his drugs away??? There were a lot of question buzzing around in my head that affected all of us involved in this illicit TD kit share – should we own up or keep it hushed up? A moral dilemma. In the end, Alan gave Erik the drugs, but he didn’t take them, since he wanted to speak to his doctor, knowing he was possible allergic to some drugs and antibiotics. So that worked out okay, but I'd like to see an addition to the rules that says it's okay to donate medical supplies to a sick or wounded rider. Is it okay for the guy taking them if he gets well and continues? I don't think so.

As for the rest of the sharing of stuff with other racers, I’m strongly opposed to it, and would like to see the rules outright ban it. There is no way you can clearly define it enough to prevent it being abused. Next year would just be even more questions. I will concede that sharing a Twix with the guy you’ve just bust out the last 1000 miles with is a cool thing to do, when you’re taking a moment to appreciate the world and your place in it, it’s a human bonding experience. When both riders know each is carrying all the calories they need it’s not a big deal. I’m prepared to outlaw it though, since it’s got the potential to be abused. A 'no' is clear, and words can't be twisted and loopholes sought.

This year I planned to race the TD what I termed ‘clean’, that to me meant without taking food from anyone on the trail. I did it in 2007, and it frustrated me that riders in GDR and TD 08 were abusing the decency of people out on the trail to go so far as asking for food and water, rather than just being offered it. However this wasn’t to prove so black and white for me when I was offered a mini-Snickers by a cycle tourist heading north. I was stuck. I first refused the snack, but he insisted again, and I couldn’t say no. The five other guys I was with had just taken one, and to not accept just came across as odd and rude. To share a little food seems to be a deep seated human greeting. Since I’d broken my rule the whole situation agitated me, and I probably came across as rude although not intending too anyway. Later in the race this was to happen again, when a Superfan SPOT stalker chased down the seven strong peloton a couple of hundred miles from the finish, and offered us a banana each. Again, to not accept it felt harsh; the guy was super excited to have found us and meet us, and I didn’t want to be rude.

My thoughts are that the SPOT stalkers and spectators have to be advised not to travel out to the trail with food, certainly not to offer it if they do have some, but firstly to try and avoid having it so it’s not an awkward situation to refuse it. The more racers are able to beg and get food on the trail, the more it diminishes our efforts on the hard stretches. The more people will leave town expecting it too, even relying on it and abusing it. Please, stalkers, don’t feed the animals!

Matt, you mention water, and my personal take is to ban water outside of what’s available to every racer too. Surely the carrying of water and the long distances between resupply, like the Basin, are what makes the challenge? Those big hauls are exciting on your own, no?
$0.02

[SteveW]

Throughout this thread I've read posts from racers trying to think up every kind of way the rules may not work for this particular scenario and that. Lots of maybe and possibly. While it does provide food for thought on this thread, I feel it's a really unhealthy place for the new racer to direct thoughts. The scenarios thought up are very unlikely to happen as you think, if at all. The reality is it's tough out there, and me personally, I'm highly unlikely to give you a tube unless it's questionable your health and safety is at risk. I need that tube myself, and lending to you means in reality I'm highly unlikely to see it again. Personally I wouldn't ask for one either, I’d ride on the rim, do whatever I had to do to survive on my own.

I suggest that instead of thinking, Can I borrow a tube if mine are shredded, it would be better to put your planning energies into thinking, I'm on my own out there, what tyres do I take to avoid punctures. How many tubes should I take. I'd better be extra vigilant to avoid punctures. And so on. I myself carry a spare CX tyre and tube. It's all about selecting your kit to get you a finish without problems and on your own. Considering that your problems can be solved with human interaction will inevitable lead you to that position, when in fact you don’t really need help at all. Solving problems on your own when it does go wrong is the key skill out there. If by chance you are offered some help when times are tough, really consider if it's what you want, or do you want to complete the race on your own?

[DaveH]

Agreed:  races are different than ITTs.  But as you state: for some, but not all.  IMO, our ruleset should allow those that fall into your group of not performing better in a race setting to still have a fair shot at a course record by doing an ITT. 

Sounds good to me.  No pre-arranged support and no drafting I think ensure that the ITT specialist is not disadvantaged.  The rest of these smaller issues (trail magic, trail angels, inter-rider sharing, cell phone use, SPOT tracking, etc.)  simply don't matter to those hauling ass at the front IME.  Even hotel stays slow me down - if I really want to move fast I also engage in minimal contact with others.  None if at all possible.  Contact = slowing...

Races are fun, but for going fast I probably prefer the ITT.  As such, I would not feel disadvantaged so long as no pre-arranged support and no drafting rules were preserved.  The rest of this stuff falls more along the lines of what type of experience do we want to make available to racers. 

Sharing between riders might enable someone to finish that otherwise wouldn't have, but it probably won't have any effect on that first finishers time.

[Marshal]

Sounds good to me.  No pre-arranged support and no drafting I think ensure that the ITT specialist is not disadvantaged.  The rest of these smaller issues (trail magic, trail angels, inter-rider sharing, cell phone use, SPOT tracking, etc.)  simply don't matter to those hauling ass at the front IME.  Even hotel stays slow me down - if I really want to move fast I also engage in minimal contact with others.  None if at all possible.  Contact = slowing...

Races are fun, but for going fast I probably prefer the ITT.  As such, I would not feel disadvantaged so long as no pre-arranged support and no drafting rules were preserved.  The rest of this stuff falls more along the lines of what type of experience do we want to make available to racers. 

Sharing between riders might enable someone to finish that otherwise wouldn't have, but it probably won't have any effect on that first finishers time.

Agreed for the top tier, however sharing can affect those who can are racing their hearts out for the best finish/highest placing with-in reach of their personal limits. 

In other words, even in a ‘worst case’ scenario of sharing, there is no cost when it happens between racers who finish behind you.  But that same worst case scenario might unfairly cost your finish place when it happens with a racer who finished in front of you. 

Imo if we exclude inter-racing sharing, or inside support, all the ‘fully prepared’ racer gives up is a bit of ‘non-essential’ companionship type sharing.  That seems a small price to pay for a rule that is simple to understand and is inherently fair from the 1st to the last finisher.

[Mathewsen]

Matt, you mention water, and my personal take is to ban water outside of what’s available to every racer too. Surely the carrying of water and the long distances between resupply, like the Basin, are what makes the challenge? Those big hauls are exciting on your own, no?
$0.02

steve, thanks for your insight. we love what you guys bring across the pond to our tiny little events. they wouldn't be the same without you.

re. water, yes, the basin is exciting for sure. there is no water period during dry years (beyond the sweetwater). i have suggested we consider regulating it differently than food for our 'template' because although we must have water, we cannot live on it alone. there's a part of me that is torn; that feels it ought be viewed more neutrally for the template. i realize in some events organizers want to stipulate that water management/resupply must be primary to that challenge/subject to the purest degree of SS (like KTR), but for a template, i'm not sure i believe it must be limited to commercial (or naturally flowing) sources to be deemed 'available to all'. i can think of a ranching pump halfway across the centennial valley in MT or a church with a hose on the corner of hwy 12 and the bursom rd, plains of st augustine, nm that i have relied upon for resupply. while not commercial sources, i consider such resupply pretty available to all who are resourceful enough to look for it and within the SS spirit.

i'm not sure why others aren't chiming in on the water resupply question w/rspt to a template but i'd like to hear opinions.

[Marshal]

steve, thanks for your insight. we love what you guys bring across the pond to our tiny little events. they wouldn't be the same without you.

re. water, yes, the basin is exciting for sure. there is no water period during dry years (beyond the sweetwater). i have suggested we consider regulating it differently than food for our 'template' because although we must have water, we cannot live on it alone. there's a part of me that is torn; that feels it ought be viewed more neutrally for the template. i realize in some events organizers want to stipulate that water management/resupply must be primary to that challenge/subject to the purest degree of SS (like KTR), but for a template, i'm not sure i believe it must be limited to commercial (or naturally flowing) sources to be deemed 'available to all'. i can think of a ranching pump halfway across the centennial valley in MT or a church with a hose on the corner of hwy 12 and the bursom rd, plains of st augustine, nm that i have relied upon for resupply. while not commercial sources, i consider such resupply pretty available to all who are resourceful enough to look for it and within the SS spirit.

i'm not sure why others aren't chiming in on the water resupply question w/rspt to a template but i'd like to hear opinions.

As the TD is on my 2010 event horizon I am very interested in why you are bringing up questions about water supply? 

Other than the general SS racing water needs, plan, research, make wise field choices, etc have there been some specific TD water issues that need addressing form a ‘rules’ point of view?  Humm, did I miss something in the posts?

Are you proposing something like a pre-arranged water catch?  Perhaps a list of ‘known to insiders only’ non-commercial water sources?

Just asking for a bit of clarification of what kind of input your looking for before I spout off…….

[Mathewsen]

As the TD is on my 2010 event horizon I am very interested in why you are bringing up questions about water supply? 
Other than the general SS racing water needs, plan, research, make wise field choices, etc have there been some specific TD water issues that need addressing form a ‘rules’ point of view?  Humm, did I miss something in the posts?

Are you proposing something like a pre-arranged water catch?  Perhaps a list of ‘known to insiders only’ non-commercial water sources?

Just asking for a bit of clarification of what kind of input your looking for before I spout off…….

Not advocating caches or inside lists. There are a number of places along the GDMBR where the water is pretty bovine and even filtering it is crazy, imo. At times in those areas there are non-commercial sources available if you seek them out. I am just thinking thru how we'll deal with those if the template shapes up as intolerant of any non-commercial resupply any time, anywhere. I'm not saying it's not possible to carry enough water from source to source, only reminded that divide strategy has historically involved carrying as little as possible over the passes and in rare cases relies on some non-commercial resupply, be that a ranch, a road work crew, a TA, or whatever. The Divide is a much bigger beast than our three day desert races, where we can expect to see virtually no one. Contrary to rumors, the Divide is relatively populated and fraught with temptation for non-commercial resupply. Just wondering what room there may be for compromise with water.

[Majcolo]

if the angel truly knows nothing of the event, is on their own hike, chalk it up to the vagaries of serendipitous opportunity.

legitimate random trail angels over the arc of an entire race represent equal *enough* opportunity for all racers. ride too fast and you miss some TAs, ride too slow and you miss some too. randomness (vagaries) of timing should take care of that, yes?

I was thinking of the CTR trail angel when I wrote my post. Under normal circumstances a trail angel could be viewed as an "act of god", certainly.

I've come around to really liking the simple approach though, even when it comes to water. I don't think "non-commercial" is the right qualifier though. "Available to all" is the right qualifier.

[Mathewsen]

Us SSers like to think of ourselves a little bit like cowboys (and cowgirls). Steel horses and all. The below is a bit of a digression but maybe there stuff to be gleaned from their code--even if it was over-romanticized. I bolded a few I like. Warning: lengthy. Please don't quote the whole dang list if you care to comment.

First chronicled by western writer, Zane Grey, in his 1934 novel The Code of the West, no "written" code ever actually existed (sounds like early SS racing!). However, the hardy pioneers who lived in the west were bound by these unwritten rules that centered on hospitality, fair play, loyalty, and respect for the land.

Ramon Adams, a Western historian, explained it best in his 1969 book, The Cowman and His Code of Ethics, saying, in part:

"Back in the days when the cowman with his herds made a new frontier, there was no law on the range. Lack of written law made it necessary for him to frame some of his own, thus developing a rule of behavior which became known as the "Code of the West." These homespun laws, being merely a gentleman’s agreement to certain rules of conduct for survival, were never written into statutes, but were respected everywhere on the range."

     -Don't inquire into a person's past. Take the measure of a man for what he is today.
     -Never steal another man's horse. A horse thief pays with his life.
     -Defend yourself whenever necessary.
     -Look out for your own.
     -Remove your guns before sitting at the dining table.
     -Never order anything weaker than whiskey.
     -Don't make a threat without expecting dire consequences.
     -Never pass anyone on the trail without saying "Howdy".
     -When approaching someone from behind, give a loud greeting before you get within shooting range.
     -Don't wave at a man on a horse, as it might spook the horse. A nod is the proper greeting.
     -After you pass someone on the trail, don't look back at him.  It implies you don't trust him.
     -Riding another man's horse without his permission is nearly as bad as making love to his wife.  Never even bother another man's horse.
     -Always fill your whiskey glass to the brim.
     -A cowboy doesn't talk much; he saves his breath for breathing.
     -No matter how weary/hungry you are after long days in the saddle, always tend to your horse's needs before your own. Get your horse some feed before you eat.
     -Cuss all you want, but only around men, horses and cows.
     -Complain about the cooking and you become the cook.
     -Always drink your whiskey with your gun hand, to show your friendly intentions.
     -Do not practice ingratitude.
     -A cowboy is pleasant even when out of sorts. Complaining is what quitters do, and cowboys hate quitters.
     -Always be courageous. Cowards aren't tolerated in any outfit worth its salt.
     -A cowboy always helps someone in need, even a stranger or an enemy.
     -Never try on another man's hat.
     -Be hospitable to strangers. Anyone who wanders in, including an enemy, is welcome at the dinner table. Same was true for riders who joined cowboys on the range.
     -Give your enemy a fighting chance.
     -Never wake another man by shaking or touching him, as he might wake suddenly and shoot you.
     -Real cowboys are modest. A braggert who is "all gurgle and no guts" is not tolerated.  
     -Cowboy drinking:
     -Always fill your whiskey glass to the brim.
     -Be there for a friend when he needs you.
     -Drinking on duty is grounds for instant dismissal and blacklisting.
     -A cowboy is loyal to his "brand," to his friends, and those he rides with.
     -Never shoot an unarmed or unwarned enemy. This was also known as "the rattlesnake code": always warn before you strike. However, if a man was being stalked     this could be ignored.
     -Never shoot a woman no matter what.
     -Consideration for others is central to the code, such as: Don't stir up dust around the chuckwagon, don't wake up the wrong man for herd duty, etc.
     -Respect the land and the environment by not smoking in hazardous fire areas, disfiguring rocks, trees, or other natural areas.
     -Honesty is absolute - your word is your bond, a handshake is more binding than a contract.
     -Live by the Golden Rule.
   
"A man's got to have a code, a creed to live by, no matter his job."
-- John Wayne

[Mathewsen]

I've come around to really liking the simple approach though, even when it comes to water. I don't think "non-commercial" is the right qualifier though. "Available to all" is the right qualifier.

problem is, a water resupply qualifier like "available to all" steers us back into the subjectivity sludge many argue we must avoid at all costs. water's the only one i struggle with re. an outright non-commercial ban.

[Jilleo]

Interesting water issues coming up. Water was one form of "trail magic" that I refused. I had it offered to me on two separate occasions in fairly remote places in Wyoming and New Mexico by men in trucks. (I should note that I was more concerned with what might be in their offered water than running out of water.) But it also felt strange, so I said no.

I'm not a fast racer; I'm an Alaskan not used to riding in temps above 60 degrees and therefore a water hoarder. I left Atlantic City with nine solid liters of liquid and didn't even need to resupply in any way across the Basin. I also put in about ~24 hours between Abiquiu and Cuba with no resupply. I'm not saying everyone should do this, but it's certainly possible.

Non-commercial ban. Wouldn't this also apply to all trail magic food? Therefore, wouldn't a non-commercial ban effectively be a trail magic ban?

[Marshal]

mathewsen,

this may be off base for TD water issues but:

Your cowboy code of conduct left out water.  This is actually a common and historical issue in the west.  It’s considered very bad form to deny drinking water, even to your enemy so to speak.  

So here is my (I come from a line of cowboys bty) off the cuff take on western hospitality and water.  If you need some “drinking” water, it’s generally ok to ‘take’ it from a outside tap, trough, pump etc if there is no one around to ask (daylight only)

However-- Never spook livestock or ‘surprise’ someone when looking for some water.  Never ever mess with the flow of someone’s irrigation water or trample around in a wet field.  Always close the gate.  If you do meet up along the way with the owner of the water/land , first introduce yourself, take time to explain what you are doing, offer to pay, don’t be in a hurry if they want to chat.

Also, this may seem a bit old fashion, even sexist but usually the only one home in the middle of the working day at a remote ranch or farm is the ranchers wife.  Because you would be arriving on a ‘quiet bike’, instead of a motorized vehicle, anyone inside the home would not know you are there.  If there are no dogs barking at you it is common courtesy to try to let the person inside know you have arrived before you are standing at her door, bang the gate and wait.  Anyway even in the west it’s always a bit iffy to take water from inside a gated yard, at a private residence, unless you have been given permission.  

[Mathewsen]

Non-commercial ban. Wouldn't this also apply to all trail magic food? Therefore, wouldn't a non-commercial ban effectively be a trail magic ban?

the non-commercial ban is generally aimed at things you seek out (such as resupply), not manna from heaven (as an earlier poster describes TM). dirty/hungry outsiders in spandex (or swobo) *seeking* resupply comes to bear on the local systems much more than TM. Resupply can also be a pretty subjective task (local racers at advantage), hence the commercial-only rule of thumb.

this may be off base for TD water issues but...Your cowboy code of conduct left out water.  This is actually a common and historical issue in the west.  It’s considered very bad form to deny drinking water, even to your enemy so to speak.

yeah, maybe the author saw it so basic as to not need iteration. i have to admit this "bad form" colors my outlook on water a bit for TD. certainly it should be left up to individual race organizers to decide how pivotal water will be in their events. racers won't starve to death trailside but can die of dehydration and it can sneak up on well-meaning, rule abiding racers. *anyone who raced the divide in the past two years hasn't quite experienced how much water the SS racer really needs (in a dry, hot year on course).

So here is my (I come from a line of cowboys bty) off the cuff take on western hospitality and water...

those rules of thumb are all very good advice for intermountain west riders, regardless of racing or just touring. i hesitate to advocate it's OK to knock on doors for water, though, as that can bear negatively on our image and the local systems (with 30-40 racers passing thru in a ~1-10 day window). I just feel funny about banning it as well. It's a tough issue for the Divide. The CDT hikers deal with this issue a lot.

[Majcolo]

problem is, a water resupply qualifier like "available to all" steers us back into the subjectivity sludge many argue we must avoid at all costs. water's the only one i struggle with re. an outright non-commercial ban.

You make a good point, and also strengthen my conviction that the simple way is best.

I also tend to carry quantities of food and water that would seem absurd to the fast guys, but exploring Colorado and Utah during early 90's without reliable trail info beyond a topo map taught me to be completely SS and I can't seem to break the habit.

For this kind of racing it really doesn't seem like too much to ask that the only exceptions to the SS rule be for health or safety reasons, and being forced to accept non-commercial support means relegation. It also addresses the PR issues you and trail717 (Marshall?) are discussing.

Having lived and ridden in rural Montana and Wyoming my experience is that outside of the tourist areas the locals are bemused at best and hostile at worst to people on bicycles wearing funny clothes. It's best to keep a low profile and be absolutely respectful. Even the ones that throw beer cans at you out windows will help you in an emergency though, which strengthens the case that emergencies should be the only reason to look for or accept non-commercial support.

It also seems that if you're willing to level the playing field between local and non-local racers, the same ideal should apply to solo racers and people racing together but separately.

Edit: Love the Code of the West post. I don't think there's anything in there that contra-indicates the no non-commercial support except in health or safety emergencies idea though.

[Pivvay]

Matt I'm not sure what the water question or proposed change is?

I don't really view water that much different than food. Haul what you need and suffer if you run out. Never assume someone will be out there to save your ass. You can get water from places that anyone else has the chance to get it, a puddle, a stream, a store or another public building (church, ranger station etc). I think going to knock on the door of a private residence or begging water off strangers is not kosher. By all means, don't die before you get water where you have to, but it seems to me that knocking on private house doors seems overstepping our bounds out there. If you're asked if you need water in the basin that's just trail magic but you shouldn't in your heart be "wink wink nudge nudging" that you need some. I mean barring a catastrophe (crash halfway where your water bladder breaks??), if you left one water source and ran out long before the next one you made a major miscalculation. There is no stretch in any of the current races where hauling water is that huge a deal that people need to be begging. It just shows inexperience most of the time. It's not like you instantly fall apart if your camelback runs dry.

And to Steve before, I don't think the giver of medical aid or even spare food/water would ever be punished/DQ'd. The receiver is the only one subject to relegation if we went ahead with certain rules.

EDIT: Matt just caught the line about the last two years of the Divide not being hot and dry. Certainly is true I suppose but even with my light setup, I could have carried double water supplies out there that I needed and I never once ran out. I've ridden enough in the hot desert to know how much water I use.

[SteveW]

...I think going to knock on the door of a private residence or begging water off strangers is not kosher. By all means, don't die before you get water where you have to, but it seems to me that knocking on private house doors seems overstepping our bounds out there. If you're asked if you need water in the basin that's just trail magic but you shouldn't in your heart be "wink wink nudge nudging" that you need some. I mean barring a catastrophe (crash halfway where your water bladder breaks??), if you left one water source and ran out long before the next one you made a major miscalculation. There is no stretch in any of the current races where hauling water is that huge a deal that people need to be begging. It just shows inexperience most of the time. It's not like you instantly fall apart if your camelback runs dry.

I think along exactly the same lines; approaching a private home to ask for water (or food) is bad form indeed. However I've no problem with Matt getting water from sources that are not on the maps or common knowledge, as long as they are available to all (if they knew about them). There's got to be some advantages to having completed the route multiple times, or studying the areas more thoroughly.

[Pivvay]

Agreed. I'm sure I got water from places not everyone did but nowhere that wasn't available for all. Doing the route before is certainly an advantage in many ways!