Sharing between riders in self-supported events: where do you stand?

[flatfishy]

limited is my stance.
whilst i agree with self supported races and the rules they employ, i'm not going to be setting any records now-a-days, so i figure if i come across a racer with a shredded tube he/she can have one of my spares but i'd kind of expect that from these rest of the back field where i reside.

food wise, you can all go to hell, it's all mine!

pre-arranged support is a bit out of order though.

[Mathewsen]

But I do see why folks on here want to ban it.  Some have been operating under the (perfectly reasonable) assumption that it is a no-no, so why would they want to change the way they have been riding for several events now?  And, from a purist point of view, it isn't self supported, no doubt there.  With 40+ riders, it may make sense to not allow it.

I still voted yes.  Banning pre-arranged support is enough for me.  Everything else is chance, available to everyone, and unlikely to actually matter.  That's my opinion, anyway. 

After all the rhetorical wrangling it's interesting that the poll results mostly reflect the notions people held coming into the debate.

Re. "limited", if our small scene does emerge from this discussion with an allowance for food *sharing*, let's coin it the 'break bread' clause. It's an idiom everyone, including, well, that dude Jesus, can understand. WWJD? He would probably break bread. It's not suggestive of inside-resupply (a no-no) or sharing a tube (IMO, a rookie move to part with) but places emphasis on the companionship aspect some folks cite as the primary loss if an outright food-sharing ban were enacted.

[DaveH]

After all the rhetorical wrangling it's interesting that the poll results mostly reflect the notions people held coming into the debate.

Hard to tell, really.  Not everyone posted with their vote, and there sure are more than 27 SS racers out there.

Re. "limited", if our small scene does emerge from this discussion with an allowance for food *sharing*, let's coin it the 'break bread' clause. It's an idiom everyone, including, well, that dude Jesus, can understand. WWJD? He would probably break bread. It's not suggestive of inside-resupply (a no-no) or sharing a tube (IMO, a rookie move to part with) but places emphasis on the companionship aspect some folks cite as the primary loss if an outright food-sharing ban were enacted.

Religion, I knew we were missing something!  That should really spice up this thread. 

At this point of the discussion, it looks like there really is no consensus (split right down the middle for sharing in some way vs. no sharing at all), and it also seems there's perceived justification for big events to have tighter rules than smaller events.  So, nothing changes, event organizers set the rules of their event as they see fit...

The biggest value of this debate has been to simply recognize the issues, at least in my mind, and to understand the differing interpretations of existing rules.

[stevage]

>Re. "limited", if our small scene does emerge from this discussion with an allowance for food *sharing*, let's coin it the 'break bread' clause.

I like it. Btw, is it generally accepted, then, that it's ok for two riders to ride side by side for days, or even weeks? Does this ever cause any hard feelings?

[Done]

At this point of the discussion, it looks like there really is no consensus (split right down the middle for sharing in some way vs. no sharing at all)...

Split down the middle? Hmmm, I don't know about that. On the two extremes, one side gets 50% (no sharing), and the other side gets 25% (sharing). If you  lump the middle group (limited sharing) into either side, you get 75/25 (no sharing/sharing) or 50/50 (no sharing/sharing)--but I don't think that it's terribly fair to do group the moderates with either extreme. I expect that those who wanted sharing or no sharing would have chose either one or the other if that's what they intended.

I'm not advocating either position, just questioning your methodology and conclusion. Seems to me that "no sharing" clearly wins because it's 25% more popular then either the opposite extreme, or the middle ground.

[Mathewsen]

I like it. Btw, is it generally accepted, then, that it's ok for two riders to ride side by side for days, or even weeks?

it's allowed.
since you mention, even weeks, i'd just like to kneel on the soap box for a minute: if you want to maximize on a SS grand tour *race* experience there are many aspects of the adventure (particularly emotional adventure) you will miss out on if you always ride with another. Thru isolation you observe your thoughts, your environment in a way you simply cannot when buddied up. Even your interactions with locals are different as a solo drifter. Do you really want to miss out on all that? In Native American "vision quests", circumstances similar to what a SS grand tour racer undergoes were employed so they might "find themselves". It may sound hokie but combine extreme exertion, fasting, sleep dep, isolation, and predators and things will get spiritual real fast. I've got to believe that's what Stamstad was looking for out of ultras and why he turned to a three week SS ITT of the Divide. I'm not saying you ought "find yourself" out there, but at least try to lose yourself for a week or two.

Side note: Being "lost" was the original intention for GPS tracking of racers. As a racer I found the call-ins to the race blog and family to be too cumbersome in "lost mode". The idea was that simplex (outbound-only) GPS messaging could inform outsiders that racers were alive/still moving yet allow the racers to remain free of the burden of phone communication.

for two riders to ride side by side for days...Does this ever cause any hard feelings?

only in Brokeback Mountain.

The biggest value of this debate has been to simply recognize the issues, at least in my mind, and to understand the differing interpretations of existing rules.

since we're onto religion i'll give that an "amen" and share my religious philosophy: `tis better to be thinking about *god* while riding your bike in the woods all day than it is to be in church all day thinking about riding your bike in the woods.

[DaveH]

I'm not advocating either position, just questioning your methodology and conclusion. Seems to me that "no sharing" clearly wins because it's 25% more popular then either the opposite extreme, or the middle ground.

Do you need me to re-word my statement so that you can sleep at night Toby?

[stevage]

>I'm not advocating either position, just questioning your methodology and conclusion. Seems to me that "no sharing" clearly wins because it's 25% more popular then either the opposite extreme, or the middle ground.

Just chiming in from the peanut gallery here:
50% of respondents chose "no sharing"
50% of respondents did not choose "no sharing"

Therefore "no sharing" is not the majority or consensus view. "Half the respondents advocated some kind of sharing", "half the respondents advocated that sharing be banned", and "a clear majority supported limitations on sharing" are all reasonable interpretations.

<resists temptation to vote just to make the numbers unpleasant>

[Majcolo]

since you mention, even weeks, i'd just like to kneel on the soap box for a minute: if you want to maximize on a SS grand tour *race* experience there are many aspects of the adventure (particularly emotional adventure) you will miss out on if you always ride with another. Thru isolation you observe your thoughts, your environment in a way you simply cannot when buddied up. Even your interactions with locals are different as a solo drifter. Do you really want to miss out on all that? In Native American "vision quests", circumstances similar to what a SS grand tour racer undergoes were employed so they might "find themselves". It may sound hokie but combine extreme exertion, fasting, sleep dep, isolation, and predators and things will get spiritual real fast. I've got to believe that's what Stamstad was looking for out of ultras and why he turned to a three week SS ITT of the Divide. I'm not saying you ought "find yourself" out there, but at least try to lose yourself for a week or two.

since we're onto religion i'll give that an "amen" and share my religious philosophy: `tis better to be thinking about *god* while riding your bike in the woods all day than it is to be in church all day thinking about riding your bike in the woods.

That's always been the biggest attraction of this kind of riding for me, since I was a kid.

It only sounds hokie to people that don't get it. My question is how can you *NOT* think about those things when you're at your limit?

/stirs pot
/cackles

[bmike-vt]

my brief stint sitting and learning meditation techniques at a zen center only reinforced how i feel / what i think / do not think / be / am / are while on the bike.

when its good, it doesn't get any better. when its bad, there are always ways to work through the muck in the mind.
regardless of the riding, the mind is what sets the tone for me. often work / family / world creep in and it takes time to sort that out. and i remember reading somewhere that it takes most folks a minimum of 3 days out in the wild to start peeling away the cultural and mental baggage that we carry around with ourselves... everything from phantom cell phone buzzing and ringing to simple notions of time / space and adapting to sun moon patterns.


now, only if most people could see dogs in and while doing the things they love, rather than letting other people brow beat them about how their dog is best.

[Done]

Do you need me to re-word my statement so that you can sleep at night Toby?

Nope.

[Majcolo]

now, only if most people could see dogs in and while doing the things they love, rather than letting other people brow beat them about how their dog is best.

You get an amen from me.

[flatfishy]

From tour divide site

†† Outside assistance is defined as any third party assistance in navigation or lighting and any non-commercial assistance in food resupply and/or lodging. A service is deemed commercial when it is for commerce, equally available to all racers (ITT + Group-start) year after year, and preferably listed in the "services" section of ACA Route maps.

as suggested in my post earlier about giving somebody a tube, if i also give them an invoice at the same time is that ok?

[Mathewsen]

From tour divide site
†† Outside assistance is defined as any third party assistance in navigation or lighting and any non-commercial assistance in food resupply and/or lodging. A service is deemed commercial when it is for commerce, equally available to all racers (ITT + Group-start) year after year, and preferably listed in the "services" section of ACA Route maps.

as suggested in my post earlier about giving somebody a tube, if i also give them an invoice at the same time is that OK?

Are you willing to commit to the part about being available to all competitors year-after-year?

Actually, heretofore the SS rules cuneiform have been interpreted for TD such that fellow racers are not considered Third Party. Racers are "Principal Actors" and theoretically the only ones other than a Trail Angel who can physically impact Divide racing. TAs and commercial Biz (especially emergency shipments) are the only legal Third Parties.

[Done]

From tour divide site

†† Outside assistance is defined as any third party assistance in navigation or lighting and any non-commercial assistance in food resupply and/or lodging. A service is deemed commercial when it is for commerce, equally available to all racers (ITT + Group-start) year after year, and preferably listed in the "services" section of ACA Route maps.

as suggested in my post earlier about giving somebody a tube, if i also give them an invoice at the same time is that ok?

Doesn't that seem like an effort to find a loophole, rather then a fair effort to understand the intent of the rule? People have been trying to understand and define the rules so that everyone is on the same page on the start line--not so that they can find ways to cut corners.

[flatfishy]

i was being facitious, jeez

[Done]

i was being facitious, jeez

Sorry. Body language, rolled eyes, etc. get lost on the web.

[flatfishy]

Are you willing to commit to the part about being available to all competitors year-after-year?

yeah, fair point mathew