Sleeping in shitboxes?

[MikeC]

I was scanning through a recent race trip report and got stuck on the fact that this racer stopped and slept in a public restroom mid-race.

I know this has happened in the past.  I gathered from this recent TR tho that it's become common.  Maybe even acceptable?

What I want to know is if any larger discussion has ever happened on the ethics of the practice?

Could someone point me to that discussion so that I can 'catch up'?

Thanks.

[Iowagriz]

Can't say that I've seen a larger discussion on the ethics of it. But I have seen discussions in various places about ensuring you don't take the only restroom. Or, in general, tie it up when others would need to use it.

The reports, or instances that I remember are early season when no one is around, or during bad weather (again no one around).

I like resourcefulness, but would hope personal ethics don't inconvenience others. I can't see myself sleeping in one.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[bikelite]

IN racing they are there in the middle of the night for 4 hours.

[MikeC]

IN racing they are there in the middle of the night for 4 hours.

The trip report that got me thinking about this today directly contradicts your assertion here.

And there are many, many more TR's out there that do the same.

Sure, some racers actions align with your assertion.  But far from all, and from what I've seen not even "many".

[AZTtripper]

Interesting topic MikeC I follow this forum pretty closely and have never seen it discussed. It certainly seems to have become standard practice for many from what I see in post during and after the AZTR, the only event I really follow. Has it become common I would say definitely yes, acceptable I have never seen anything to the contrary.

So Mike if you had foreseen this would you have added a no sleeping in bathrooms rule to your original GDMBR? That event pretty much set the standard that race directors used in formatting rules across the board.

[MikeC]

Interesting topic MikeC I follow this forum pretty closely and have never seen it discussed. It certainly seems to have become standard practice for many from what I see in post during and after the AZTR, the only event I really follow. Has it become common I would say definitely yes, acceptable I have never seen anything to the contrary.

So Mike if you had foreseen this would you have added a no sleeping in bathrooms rule to your original GDMBR? That event pretty much set the standard that race directors used in formatting rules across the board.

I was (and kind of still am) incapable of predicting the explosion of this sort of racing.

Separately, it never crossed my mind that you'd have to legislate against sleeping on one of the filthiest surfaces imaginable. 

This is a situation where -- one would think -- common sense would prevail. 

Seeing the act continually popping up in trip reports suggests that many people are willing to gamble a few ounces of kit with the possibility of getting really sick. 

Or maybe they deliberately don't think about it until they're too tired to consider the consequences?

[AZTtripper]

Separately, it never crossed my mind that you'd have to legislate against sleeping on one of the filthiest surfaces imaginable. 

Good point, for me it would be the smell I try to limit my time in pit toilets in general.

[aarond]

I think it is unethical to sleep in the john if even one person can't use it because you are in there.  I think one time a Grand Canyon ranger got very annoyed because a bike packer spent several busy hours in one of only two John's on the north rim.  Like a lot of bike packers, I have often been very happy to snatch a few hours of warmer sleep.  I never plan on it, and when I do so it is for 3 hours in the middle of an abandoned forest at 2 in the morning.  As far as the hygiene aspect goes, cleanliness varies and some outhouses are disgusting.  Nevertheless, if it gets cold enough, even the biggest germaphobe will choose warmth.  Most bikepack racers have immune systems which can handle others excretory germs.  Every time we are in a public toilet and someone flushes, millions of fecal germs become aerosolized and we breathe them.  Dont get me wrong though, it is a very unsavory thing to do.
 

[AZTtripper]

I think it is unethical to sleep in the john if even one person can't use it because you are in there. 
 

This has always been my thinking when people talk about using them as sleeping quarters.

[MikeC]

I think it is unethical to sleep in the john if even one person can't use it because you are in there. 

Here we can agree, and this is what I was hoping had already been discussed.

Nevertheless, if it gets cold enough, even the biggest germaphobe will choose warmth. 

Interesting.  I remember in the early days of this genre that it was a point of pride to be prepared for everything the course and conditions would throw at you.  I don't remember cutting corners to gain an advantage being highly lauded, nor can I think of a better way to describe carrying less gear and then sleeping in a shitter to stay warm.

Most bikepack racers have immune systems which can handle others excretory germs.   

I'm sorry, but you've completely lost me here.  Perhaps if you painted with a broader brush you could be more wildly inaccurate?

[aarond]

Oh oh, somebody is getting cranky.  Back in my day we would get outside and go for a ride when this happened.

[MikeC]

Oh oh, somebody is getting cranky.  Back in my day we would get outside and go for a ride when this happened.

Yep, on my way out the door to ski a bit.

When I get back I hope to read some sanity herein.

[kiwidave]

What I want to know is if any larger discussion has ever happened on the ethics of the practice?

Mike - No larger discussion of the uses of Montana Hiltons has taken place.

... sleeping on one of the filthiest surfaces imaginable.  

Seeing the act continually popping up in trip reports suggests that many people are willing to gamble a few ounces of kit with the possibility of getting really sick.  

On the TD, I used toilets 4 times and they were very clean and quite odorless. Early season and low use I guess. Came across a few next to busier roads or popular spots which were impossible to use due to smell.

Ethics - "don't be a jerk" rule applies. (Given that leading racers have locked the door at Butts Cabin in the past, I think occupying a remote toilet for a few hours at through the night is unlikely going to get close to being an ethical issue ... don't lock the door, if someone knocks vacate). Also, IIRC nearly all toilets were dual blocks.

Kit - I've not seen any trip reports where racers DID NOT have sleep kit ... it was just a better choice in the circumstances. e.g. quicker than setting up tent, warmer, drier. no wind, no bears.

[bmattingly]

In some isolated instances it could help avoid hypothermia if caught in super cold weather with strong winds, rain or snow.

[MikeC]

In some isolated instances it could help avoid hypothermia if caught in super cold weather with strong winds, rain or snow.

I agree. 

I also think that using them should be the exception, and not a part of strategy or because you went too light and/or failed to plan.

Nothing wrong with ducking in to collect yourself, add another layer, and fix whatever on the bike is slowing you down such that you got caught unawares by the storm. 

But using them to shelter from "super cold weather" is sort of ironic.  People bivy along the Iditarod in -40* temps with some regularity.  They can do this because they're prepared for the conditions.

If we as a community continue to look the other way at shitbox "bivying" then people will continue to cut corners by going light on gear and then "needing" to use the shitboxes as shelter.

[MikeC]

I've been gone for a few weeks, and sort of expected that when I returned there would be a few new, well-reasoned replies to this, explaining why the concept is somehow sound.

Doesn't seem that's the case.

I propose that the act of sleeping in restrooms be vocally and actively discouraged by race directors going forward.

The idea should never have gained legs to begin with.

[AZTtripper]

You might be expecting too much from this site, at this time it doesn't really get that much traffic.  More people seem to discuss the races on Facebook, if you want to get a discussion going get something posted at Bikepacking.com .net is so yesterday.

Just trying to be helpful not snarky Tim

[MikeC]

Must walk before run, grasshoppa.

[Bobonli]

I?m not a racer or endurance athlete. I occasionally do a randoneurring event and still get the RUSA newsletters. What you?re describing, Mike, is relatively common in that pursuit: sleeping in restrooms, bank ATM entrance ways, bus shelters. Some of it sounds like pure exhaustion? I?m out of gas and the entrance to the bank was better than the side of the road. 

I realize there?s a distinction between rando riding and BPing races, where the later specifically contemplates camping out. I?ve been riding a loooong time but only within the last few years have I seen riders publicly admitting to sleeping in a toilet versus wrapping themselves in an emergency blanket and sleeping on the side of the road. Times change and people?s behaviors change too. I could see myself using the bathroom to warm up, handle an unplanned emergency and move on. Not for sleeping; I have quilt and hammock/tent for that!

[MikeC]

The larger point is that this genre of riding and racing is -- to an extent -- evolving to be less about being prepared than about cutting corners to save teeny bits of time.

I would like to turn that tide.

Most people that have spent any amount of time here have heard the phrase (and origin of) Do. It. Yourself.

I'd like for that to come back to meaning "Be prepared for the conditions you might encounter, or be prepared to do without".

It is unacceptable that it has come to mean "Take shortcuts and inconvenience others, if you want, because meh -- who cares..."