TD'12 Race Discussion

[bmike-vt]

Yea, it does look like Jo Ann B is rockin' a cross bike.  Didn't someone else attempt this on a cross bike?  Maybe, Fixie Dave...prior to being Fixie?  I remember someone saying, never again would they try it on a cross bike.

i think it was dave nice, and i think it was still fixed.

[woody]

So how does the gearing compare on Ollie's and Craig'd bikes? Does Ollie running a Rohloff have bigger gear for an all out sprint to the finish the last 65+ miles? Or are they equal?

Woody


 

[spcabin75]

I really agree with bmike-vt.  The race and records is with your self.  It is great to have milestones to compare efforts and set goals, but to call someone out for the "purity" of their effort is bad form and to me, not in keeping with the ideals of the event.  All ages, bikes, gender, training should be welcome.  If someone caches supplies, calls in support, etc. then bring the TD police

[ThatDudeOnABike]

I really agree with bmike-vt.  The race and records is with your self.  It is great to have milestones to compare efforts and set goals, but to call someone out for the "purity" of their effort is bad form and to me, not in keeping with the ideals of the event.  All ages, bikes, gender, training should be welcome.  If someone caches supplies, calls in support, etc. then bring the TD police

In some sports a record is something every participant aspires to, and it would seem that anyone challenging oneself to do this should have a bar set somewhere, and perhaps a legendary figure that set it. It's more for everyone else to marvel at, which in this case is, however, not many.

Keep the records and let people argue about whose was better, and keep trying to catch a break and beat them--that's one thing that keeps people interested and striving to do better, even if it goes against the dogma of the purist.

[Murph]

In bike racing, there is generally no point in making a break until/unless you think you can make it stick. Each of the two leaders may simply be holding back some cards until the right time. Did they start with a goal of besting the current record or winning the current race? These different goals would result in different racing strategies. Personally, I think I'll wait until Antelope Wells to make my own conclusions. If the riders cross the line hand-in-hand, that is one thing. If one racer beats the other, even by the width of a tire, that is something else.

However, by reading the posts here, it seems that while those who follow and/or participate in this race are excited by riders putting in fast times, they are inspired by the journey made by all. Otherwise, why would posts of pictures of individual riders chugging along with a smile (nary a competitor in sight) result in so many grateful replies?

[moosevt]

So how does the gearing compare on Ollie's and Craig'd bikes? Does Ollie running a Rohloff have bigger gear for an all out sprint to the finish the last 65+ miles? Or are they equal?

Woody


 

A rohloff's 14 gear spread is about equal to a standard (probably 3x9) drivetrain without any of the redundant gearing. I would say that they are pretty equal when it comes to that element.

[bigfork]

Kiwi and a Canuck rocking the Divide is what I see...and holy balls, Eszter...you are blowing us all away, too! Keep hammering everyone, and keep Big Dave in your heart!

[elobeck]

Regarding Craig and Ollie,

I will speak in their defense, they are riding their own races and both are obviously super strong riders.

I had the pleasure of racing with them through the flathead. At times they were separated by anywhere from 40 feet to a 1/2 mile or more. I passed Ollie who was fueling up with some food after bonking on Galton Pass. Craig was  ahead by a 1/2 mile, but when Ollie saw me he jumped on his bike, passed me,  and started pedaling after Craig, he is super competitive. Both stop independently to eat a snack, add or subtract layers, etc. They just so happen to be evenly matched. Their highs and lows must cancel each other out. This is very likely to happen in a race with this many competitors.
Even though occasionally they found themselves riding side by side along with myself on day 2, they shared comfortable silences and focused on the task at hand.

I sincerely wish them the best in their run for the border. They have worked hard for it and I miss chasing them:)

I do hope they there is a decided victor at the border.

Erik L

[Newfydog]

The record time is a mix of conditions and effort.  Everyone will have their opinion as to which is more impressive.  Wasn't the JayP record done in a September ITT, with no snow to hike?  To me the performance we're watching this year is amazing when one factors in the snow they dealt with up north, which far outweighs any advantage of having some company.

They are now in day 12, the time many top riders finish the RAAM.  Still a long way to go.  One heck of a ride.  

[Stumpy+Cranky]

Yea, it does look like Jo Ann B is rockin' a cross bike.  Didn't someone else attempt this on a cross bike?  Maybe, Fixie Dave...prior to being Fixie?  I remember someone saying, never again would they try it on a cross bike.

Someone in this or the pre-race thread mentioned Deanna Adams rode a cross bike in 2009, a fixie no less. She deviated from the route and was relegated,  but she did make it to AW.

[Jilleo]

Regarding Craig and Ollie,

There's a lot of conjecture on this forum from SPOT data. From the viewpoint of the "original intent" of Divide racing, I wonder if the original 2004 Great Divide race may have looked similar in front had SPOTs existed back then. That was the year Pete Basinger finished 20 minutes behind Mike Curiak. Also that year, Matt Lee started riding with Trish Stevenson. His own words: I’m losing my best friend from an effort that, although solo in concept, has been made exponentially more fun and real through companionship. Tomorrow when I ride from Big Springs to Black Rock bike campground, it will be difficult. A scenic stretch through Yellowstone / Teton country won’t be near as sweet as it should. I hope I can adjust." (Source: http://www.dirtworld.com/story.asp?id=515&article_type_id=2&articletypecode=racestories)

I'm just pointing out the "purist" viewpoint of solo Divide racing seems to have developed over time.

[BobM]

Regarding Craig and Ollie,

There's a lot of conjecture on this forum from SPOT data. From the viewpoint of the "original intent" of Divide racing, I wonder if the original 2004 Great Divide race may have looked similar in front had SPOTs existed back then. That was the year Pete Basinger finished 20 minutes behind Mike Curiak. Also that year, Matt Lee started riding with Trish Stevenson. His own words: I’m losing my best friend from an effort that, although solo in concept, has been made exponentially more fun and real through companionship. Tomorrow when I ride from Big Springs to Black Rock bike campground, it will be difficult. A scenic stretch through Yellowstone / Teton country won’t be near as sweet as it should. I hope I can adjust." (Source: http://www.dirtworld.com/story.asp?id=515&article_type_id=2&articletypecode=racestories)

I'm just pointing out the "purist" viewpoint of solo Divide racing seems to have developed over time.

Or to quote from Paul Howard's brother-in-law from Paul's book Two Wheels on my Wagon:

"It's reassuring to know I have the right website as I also found a site set up by a group of alternative crazy-men who follow a similar route but have to wear hair-shirts and be beaten to sleep every night with a totem pole."

Within the rules everyone is welcome to have the experience they crave, whether or not it is as "pure" as the next fellow's.

[mikepro]

The record time is a mix of conditions and effort.  Everyone will have their opinion as to which is more impressive.  Wasn't the JayP record done in a September ITT, with no snow to hike?  To me the performance we're watching this year is amazing when one factors in the snow they dealt with up north, which far outweighs any advantage of having some company.

And here's another opinion: I disagree.  The record time is what it is.  This event/ride/race is so large and massive, that simply riding through to the end, following the same route from year to year, is enough accurate time comparison.

No, the racers have not had to deal with too much snow this year, and no, the advantage of having company far outweighs other factors, for a good 90% of the riders, not the other way around.  There is way too much over-emphasis on external conditions in this discussion.  This adventure is way more mental and internal, and that's how having company is different than any other external condition used for comparison.  I guarantee that any/every rider's time would be slower, and there would be heck of a lot more DNF's, if everyone were ITT/solo the whole way.  Including mine.

Also, please do not over-emphasize a few miles of snow hiking over 3 or 4 passes in the north.  It is not that big of a deal in the span of 2745 miles.  In September it's colder and there's much less daylight.  There's been substantial wind (helpful to Southerbounders) this year.  There's been no mud through Bannack Bench / Medicine Lodge area this year.  2009 was super wet, 2010 had a little bit of everything.  Each year riders experience a slew of mechanical issues, wildfire encounters, navigational challenges, weather, emotions, physical limitations (respiratory, achilles, broken ribs, knee dislocations, to name few this year).  And we still haven't hit NM yet in this year's race where the relative heat and relative dryness will be a HUGE disadvantage for some riders.  Thunderstorms turn long sections of NM dirt roads into demoralizing peanut butter slogs, only to dry out and harden up in the span of hours.  It's really just a matter of timing, for which riders have very little control.  The roll-call of past riders who've gotten "stuck" in NM is long.  I'm pointing out that over 17 to 25 days, the external conditions even each other out.

It's not about being pure.  It's about recognizing and acknowledging that Grand Depart TD and ITT/solo are indeed 2 distinctly different attempts and challenges.  I've done the race as GD only, and I think there's scant few people on this forum who have raced the event in both ways or fashions.  As far as I know, JayP is the only one.

[bikingbakke]

It's all very interesting discussion today.  What strikes me upon some reflection:
- for a bunch of free spirited athletes testing the edges of inhabited society in the mountains, rules seem to be of high degrees of contention and debate here.  I view this more of a feat of strength and endurance for everyone to behold, enjoy the soap opera unfold, etc.  it almost seems too negative, or even american style hyper legalism
- if one of Craig or Ollie wasn't there, would the other be in 10th spot?  Somehow I doubt it.  Would they be on track for a shot at record pace?  Their legs, lungs, equipment, planning and endurance seem to suggest so.
- it appears the riders themselves are respectful of the rules - Erik L reported they rode apart, stopped seperately.  We all saw the Idaho/Wyoming border split up due to circumstance.  They declined food and Gatorate from a non-permanent on course establishment.  It doesn't appear they're seeking to be indicted... vs. the others who were publicly called out for really riding together and drafting.
- I see the word solo tossed around a lot, and rules are meant for interpretation.  To me it appears their efforts are entirely solo - no drafting, no pushing, no common gear, etc.  I don't see in the rules that it says "complete the event as a reclusive, antisocial manner, and shun fellow humans."  
- so really it comes down to, as someone has pointed out, the two efforts perhaps pacing each other, taking out the lows.

It's easy to imagine harmonious riding, but maybe they have put in half a dozen sly attacks each and are countering them daily?  We don't know.  Maybe out of each stop, one is filling a water bottle while one is rolling?  Or testing with accelerations on climbs?  Or one wakes up to find the other out the door with his bike and then scrambles?  There's a lot more than two dots and a couple photos can ever capture.

Doesn't look like they're afoul at all.

[elitheknife]

In regards to the Ollie & Craig saga:

What I see, from all of the photos and call-ins that these guys have made, is two guys absolutely loving the Divide route, riding their bikes, challenging themselves, one another, and crushing a record.  I can only imagine that the experience is even sweeter with someone else around.

From a human perspective, I cannot see any harm in that.

From a racing perspective, I can imagine that having someone, so evenly matched, in your proximity is an even better motivator.  No doubt, the competitive nature of both of these guys is driving a record-setting pace.

I too hope to see a break at some point, but I'm stoked for both Craig and Ollie!

Scott

[mtbcast]

Regarding Craig and Ollie,

There's a lot of conjecture on this forum from SPOT data. From the viewpoint of the "original intent" of Divide racing, I wonder if the original 2004 Great Divide race may have looked similar in front had SPOTs existed back then. That was the year Pete Basinger finished 20 minutes behind Mike Curiak. Also that year, Matt Lee started riding with Trish Stevenson. His own words: I’m losing my best friend from an effort that, although solo in concept, has been made exponentially more fun and real through companionship. Tomorrow when I ride from Big Springs to Black Rock bike campground, it will be difficult. A scenic stretch through Yellowstone / Teton country won’t be near as sweet as it should. I hope I can adjust." (Source: http://www.dirtworld.com/story.asp?id=515&article_type_id=2&articletypecode=racestories)

I'm just pointing out the "purist" viewpoint of solo Divide racing seems to have developed over time.

And to some extent the ship may have sailed on pure solo efforts. We have 105 people being tracked. It's likely from a GD that people are going to ride at very similar levels and thus coagulate in this way. In the end, the "gentlemen's agreement" has to stand on the integrity of those involved. GPS helps to give a view and keep them honest but as you note, pre-GPS you relied on the character of the rider and you pretty much have to now.

[nowayjose]

It's obvious that Ezther is ripping it, but Isn't Katherine Wallace ahead of the Women's Record too? I'm also very impressed with her ride too.

[metalartgate]

Well said Bikingbakke!

  it almost seems too negative, or even american style hyper legalism

[Newfydog]

 I guarantee that any/every rider's time would be slower, and there would be heck of a lot more DNF's, if everyone were ITT/solo the whole way.  Including mine.

Well, you've done the race, and know yourself, but I don't think you can speak for everyone.  The most miles I ever logged on a trip was across Sweden and Norway, where I rode two weeks hardly talking to a soul.  It was light all night, my orange tent glowed, and the birds started singing at 2 AM so I couldn't sleep much.  Had I been with someone, I might have done something other than just ride 16-18 hours a day.  Mentally I was at peace, and company would not have made my body go any faster or farther.  I think an ITT would actually be easier for me, nothing to to disturb my meditative state.

[MidSouth]

Yes.  Ester, Katherine, and Tracy are all well ahead of the Women's record pace according to projections.

It's obvious that Ezther is ripping it, but Isn't Katherine Wallace ahead of the Women's Record too? I'm also very impressed with her ride too.