TD'12 Race Discussion

[ThatDudeOnABike]

How many calories do these racers burn per day?

Before Stagecoach, Eszter told be she had a bit of gluten intolerance and tried to follow a Paleo-like diet when not endurance racing. I wondered how that would affect her during the Divide because it's not like those issues go away, and suddenly you can just eat a big stack of pancakes without feeling a little off. I understand as well as anyone how difficult it is to stick to a remotely balanced diet on the Divide, but still wonder if recovery would improve if one somehow could. I had this conversation with a Pacific Crest Trail through-hiker recently, a guy who was putting in big miles — 25 to 30 a day on tough terrain. He kept his diet really simple and mostly natural — oatmeal, rice, beans, nuts, dried fruit and the like — and claimed he felt stronger every day. I ate pretty much entirely candy on the Divide had felt the opposite — Increasingly run down, sickly, fatigued. I convinced myself diet didn't matter as long as I was getting calories — and still think calories are the most important thing — but now I wonder if daily recovery would improve if one didn't have to eat so much high-sugar, high gluten, processed food. Divide lore places heavy emphasis on how awesome it is to eat so much crap, but for me, the intensity with which I was craving vegetables toward the end speaks volumes about the importance of quality food, not just quantity.

But, yeah, giant burritos make me very happy, too, so I totally understand Eszter's mindset. I also think burritos fall into the healthy zone, at least they're balanced with actual protein and some nutrients. My problem was too many meals that consisted entirely of candy bars and Sour Patch Kids.

[mbeardsl]

So how does the gearing compare on Ollie's and Craig'd bikes? Does Ollie running a Rohloff have bigger gear for an all out sprint to the finish the last 65+ miles? Or are they equal?

Woody

I always have to gear bigger with the Rolhoff because the smaller gears are SO small.  I'd suspect he has a lighter top end, but hard to say without specific cog/ring comparisons.  Can't tell from the pics.

A rohloff's 14 gear spread is about equal to a standard (probably 3x9) drivetrain without any of the redundant gearing. I would say that they are pretty equal when it comes to that element.

That depends on what ring/cog he's running.  I run a 40x16 on my 29er but my wife likes mashing so runs a 48x16 on her 26er so she's actually geared higher.  If CS is running a standard 3x9 in the 44/32/22 x 11-32 rnage OW would have to be running at least 44x16 or 42x15 to get the same gearing on the high end.

What is riding a Rohloff like? I think I tried one a few years ago, along with a bunch of other hub-gears, for a couple days, and they ALL seemed to be noticeably inefficient except for their one direct-drive gear. I was shockingly underwhelmed. I'd been hearing how good the new hub-gears were. Like, I wouldn't want to try to ride hard on a hub-gear due to resenting the work-loss -- felt like 1-2mph at 20mph. But I was mostly using one (forget the name) and maybe didn't give the Rohloff enough of a try. The R also seems heavy-ish (rear-heavy, anyway). ...I see that a R system weighs 1800 gr vs 1600 for derailer sys, but that's with a chain on both. Apparently belts are lighter than chains.

I like them, but have only bought used ones that have been "worn in" so far.  The big thing to remember is that perceived work loss and actual work loss are very different.  I do think there are a few gears where I actually feel a reduction but especially in 8-14 there is nothing.  I found myself thinking that I was hearing or feeling an inefficieny due to the meshing of gears but in reality there has been no difference in ride data when I look at HR/time/disctance comparisons (not perfect I know).  To me it's the same as the noise of a traditional drivetrain especially when it's dirty but all of that is inside the hub so it's a different feeling and sound altogether.

They are heavy but I'm a big guy so don't really notice it much and 200g will never be my limiting factor.  You notice it much more when it's sitting in your hand that when it's built up and rolling.  The ability to dump or gear up by multiple gears and shift when standing still (or going backwards) is amazing and something you don't think you'd use as much as you do.  The delay/power reduction to shift is almost imperceptable after you get used to riding it.  MUCH less than traditional drivetrain where it takes at least a half rotation and you have to be mindful of letting off the power.

This is a good reference, table 5 near the bottom explains the difference in 1-7 and 8-14 well:  http://www.rohloff.de/en/technology/speedhub/efficiency_measurement/index.html

[mikepro]

It's been a long morning/day for our fearless leaders out on the Polvadera Mesa today ... 6 hours since leaving Abiquiu.  And we've got close to 5 riders in NM just about ...

[DaveH]

So does anyone know yet if the C&O Express will be forced to reroute because of the fire?

I don't think the fire in the Gila will force a reroute.  Most of the closure is within the wilderness.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5374609.pdf

I did an overlay of the closure map and the TD route  a few days back.  The route does not hit any part of the closure at this time, closest it gets is about 2-3 miles.  It's posted in this thread somewhere...

2.5 miles is pretty close.  They will have some very tough breathing conditions at best.  Fingers are crossed the closure does not grow!

[mbeardsl]

Calls overnight and this morning - Tracey Petervary called in from Steamboat Springs and recaps her last couple of days since Pinedale. She’s been sleeping a lot and mentions the great folks at Orange Peel! Heading into the night. Cjell Money called in from the Montana High Country Lodge. After a great dinner, plans to push out for the night. Rants: South Bounders, spot stalkers and saddle sores. He lost his cell phone – it’s not the pink case one. Mark Farnsworth called in to say he’s entered Colorado and again from Steamboat!

His calls are awesome but audio on Mark's blog is just great.  My new favorite is "this bike feels like it was made for me".  I can see him chuckling at that all day (he built the bike himself).

[Ryan Correy]

Yep, this is the guy with the nasty toe! Love your thoughts on the photo... the perfect caption for it I think!

I liked the picture of the rider mounting the bike first thing in the morning.  For me, that is a very telling moment.  After resting all night, eating, sorting gear, maps, and myself out its time to ride again.  Putting my leg over the bar, clipping in and sitting down always brings back the previous days effort, especially in the physical sense. Parts of your body that felt okay on land, feel a little tender on the bike and the thoughts of another big day ahead become more real. The transition from normal person to machine.
I think this is the rider with the toe injury.

[metalartgate]

I find it interesting the the number of people that seem to eat junk while on this race! Back when I was racing Ultra Marathons and providing support for RAAM. A product called Ultra Energy was developed by Rand Ice and DR Milman for Pete Penseyres. In '84 RAMM Pete's time was 9d 13h on solid food in '86 with Ultra Energy his time was 8d 9h 28 hour improvement, YES there are many factors that could have caused the time improvement the big difference was that he was fully recovered in 2 weeks vs 4 to 6 prior.
In '87 when Pete and Lon set the tandem record they had body comps and blood chems before and after their 7 d 15 hr crossing. They both lost only 3 -4 lbs half of which was fat. Thing to note here is the lack of muscle mass. If you r not getting the proper nutrients like eating candy you will loose muscle mass and take longer to recover.
Sadly Ultra Energy is no more not sure what happened. Randy Ice has developed Spiz which is much the same. Now that I'm getting back into Ultras I have been using it and it works. Yes on the TD it would be difficult to haul enough but you could use the general delivery method and supplement you food you pick up along the way.

[northofbeyond]

A couple of years ago there was a widget where you could see all the movement for everyone for 24 hours -- is that still around anywhere?

[metalartgate]

This guy is going to try to ride the Great Divide Route on a UNI-Cycle!
http://www.greatdivideride.com/

[metalartgate]

I should add that both Ultra Energy and Spiz were designed to be directly absorbed by the body and not have to be digested. A big advantage in an endurance event.

I find it interesting the the number of people that seem to eat junk while on this race! Back when I was racing Ultra Marathons and providing support for RAAM. A product called Ultra Energy was developed by Rand Ice and DR Milman for Pete Penseyres. In '84 RAMM Pete's time was 9d 13h on solid food in '86 with Ultra Energy his time was 8d 9h 28 hour improvement, YES there are many factors that could have caused the time improvement the big difference was that he was fully recovered in 2 weeks vs 4 to 6 prior.
In '87 when Pete and Lon set the tandem record they had body comps and blood chems before and after their 7 d 15 hr crossing. They both lost only 3 -4 lbs half of which was fat. Thing to note here is the lack of muscle mass. If you r not getting the proper nutrients like eating candy you will loose muscle mass and take longer to recover.
Sadly Ultra Energy is no more not sure what happened. Randy Ice has developed Spiz which is much the same. Now that I'm getting back into Ultras I have been using it and it works. Yes on the TD it would be difficult to haul enough but you could use the general delivery method and supplement you food you pick up along the way.

[RonDog]

This guy is going to try to ride the Great Divide Route on a UNI-Cycle!
http://www.greatdivideride.com/

Sounds amazing but it's already been done.
http://divideby1.blogspot.com/

[DenisVTT]

This guy is going to try to ride the Great Divide Route on a UNI-Cycle!
http://www.greatdivideride.com/

Gracie Sorbello and Matt Burney did it in 68 days back in 2009.

http://divideby1.blogspot.fr/

Interestingly, each time they crossed the Divide, they posed and made the crossing number with their bodies and bikes:

#26:


#30:

[timroz]

That is so amazing to me.  I can ride my unicycle about 1 block before my legs are burning and my nuts hurt.

[bmike-vt]

I find it interesting the the number of people that seem to eat junk while on this race! Back when I was racing Ultra Marathons and providing support for RAAM. A product called Ultra Energy was developed by Rand Ice and DR Milman for Pete Penseyres. In '84 RAMM Pete's time was 9d 13h on solid food in '86 with Ultra Energy his time was 8d 9h 28 hour improvement, YES there are many factors that could have caused the time improvement the big difference was that he was fully recovered in 2 weeks vs 4 to 6 prior.
In '87 when Pete and Lon set the tandem record they had body comps and blood chems before and after their 7 d 15 hr crossing. They both lost only 3 -4 lbs half of which was fat. Thing to note here is the lack of muscle mass. If you r not getting the proper nutrients like eating candy you will loose muscle mass and take longer to recover.
Sadly Ultra Energy is no more not sure what happened. Randy Ice has developed Spiz which is much the same. Now that I'm getting back into Ultras I have been using it and it works. Yes on the TD it would be difficult to haul enough but you could use the general delivery method and supplement you food you pick up along the way.

RAAM - support crew, mechanic, air conditioned RV to rest and sleep in, and whatever food and creature comforts you want.

TD - all on your bike, your back, and at the local store.

There was discussion of the general delivery drop, but your timing can really be affected. Open close times, distance between POs, and IIRC some POs aren't open every day.

I was using Hammer Products for my randonneuring rides. Worked well until I got past the 400k range and then I tired of it. And I needed to plan drop bags and such. Much happier using some gel, electrolyte tabs, and living off the land.

YMMV, be curious of anyone's done the liquid food thing all the way on the divide.

[elitheknife]

I know that Devian Gilbert, aka Devo, attempted a Hammer liquid nutrition diet on his Divide attempt in 2010.  I think the reason he claims to have bailed was that he reached a state of "perma-bonk".  I remember him even describing falling asleep on the bike.  He seems to think that it was a lack of nutrition that got him there...

I'll see if I can get him to chime in here...

Scott

[Newfydog]

I find it interesting the the number of people that seem to eat junk while on this race! Back when I was racing Ultra Marathons and providing support for RAAM. A product called Ultra Energy was developed

I remember a guy named Lon Haldeman who won a number of RAAMs.  He ate can after can of spaghetti-Os.  Some people are just multi-fuel machines.

Food is a challange on this route---"ok at the Exxon station we need two lunches, a dinner, and a breakfast......thats 14 cheese n crackers, 20 slim jims, ten hershey bars....."

[cjellmoney]

Hi There! Cjell Money here!

Finishing up the last couple hundred miles on the TD heading NoBo finishing in Banff. I have not arranged an exit after I arrive in Banff. I plan on going back to Colorado and wanted to see if anyone knew the best way to travel South from Banff...or know of a ride traveling South after completing the TD

[Jilleo]

How many calories do these racers burn per day?

Obviously it depends on the individual, but the answer is a surprising lot. In normal (i.e. <1 day) endurance events, I can get away with running a calorie deficit and I usually feel best when operating in fat-burning mode, getting by on 100-200 calories an hour. But I think after three or four days of all-day efforts, instinct takes over and you just start plowing mindlessly through food. Conventional wisdom says you can still only process about 300-400 calories an hour, but there were occasional times when I'd buy a 16-ounce bag of Sour Patch Kids intended to last for two days, start munching, and suddenly the entire thing would be gone. 1,600 calories and it wouldn't even make a dent. I never kept track of consumption, but I wouldn't be surprised if it averaged 5,000-6,000 a day. I still finished about 15 pounds lighter than I was at the start.

I think in the perfect situation that just can't exist on the Tour Divide, healthier whole foods would be ideal. I can't see liquid nutrition working for many people in the long term, especially because it can be so difficult to resupply and carrying enough between reliable stops would be detrimental. Even if your liquid nutrition had the perfect balance of carbs, fats, proteins, etc., I can imagine it would start to feel so unsatisfying that it would be impossible to take in enough. Plus you also have to take into account what actually sounds appetizing when you're in the thick of it, which can also be limiting. I can get plenty of energy eating junk, but I do believe now that over time the mounting nutrient deficiencies, digestive distress, and constant huge fluctuations in glucose levels start to wear down on my body.

Lynda is absolutely right that it's all a game of efficiency, balancing needs and convenience, forward motion and recovery. It can take an hour to buy and consume all of the vegetables you'd need to fulfill a 1,000-calorie quota, or two minutes to buy and consume two King-sized snicker's bars. Plus after eating 1,000 calories of veggies, you're going to feel full and sluggish for some time afterward. Is it worth the time loss for the recovery benefits you'd gain later on? Probably not. Which is why everyone on the Divide consumes crap.

[ptb in san diego]

This evening's magic nutritional bullet seems to be Subway.  Doesn't look like there's a grocery store in Cuba, least I can't find it.

[ComoDepot]

Katherine at the Bar. A very nice lady who seems to have met/talked to everybody on the tour.