TD'12 Race Discussion

[T-Race]

Wah-wah-wah yourself.

Good one, what are you 12? Go ride your bike!

[Done]

Good one, what are you 12? Go ride your bike!

No need to get all personal and pissy. I was just echoing your amusing expression. And yes, I am about to go ride my bike!

[krefs]

I'd argue that SPOTs actually are advantageous along the route and can really benefit riders. There have been quite a few times during past TDs and other events that I've stopped by places right near or after closing, and the owner/employee had kept the shop open just because they had been following the tracker and seen that I was coming. I always felt a bit sheepish about that, but it's what's evolved with the increasing popularity of these races. So not having a SPOT can be a bit of a disadvantage if it means you miss a hot meal, a place to resupply, or an on-duty mechanic at a shop. Whether or not a new SPOT should be delivered to a racer mid-race really infringes on the "purity" aspect for which some racers strongly advocate. I'm personally not particularly opposed to it, but I think it's worth acknowledging that SPOTs definitely can change the outcomes of races, and in far more ways than just letting competitors know where you are or how much sleep you've had.

[Done]

Maybe we should just schedule regular deliveries of anything that a rider might lose, break, or otherwise need to complete, verify, or enjoy the ride. Kind of eliminates the whole problematic "self-support" clause, while guaranteeing that even ITTers can get the same kind of warm and comforting support that group-starters often enjoy.

Wah-wah-wah. Sorry, been reading too many CTR blogs this week, and I'm frustrated with the number of instances of people jumping on the "whatever works" bandwagon. Hopefully competing in my first roadie time trial this afternoon will burn a bit of sarcasm out of my pipes, making me a kinder and gentler curmudgeon.

[DenisVTT]

It's very clear that a Spot provides a huge advantage to racers, and this can clearly be seen in this case: JayP did 550 miles in 3 days while he had one, and as far as I can see on Trackleaders, he hasn't moved at all since he's lost it!

 

[cousinmosquito]

Thats not a good sign if hes losing crap already. Usually happens when you are "losing it" yourself. It would fit in with his purist ideals though. Its pretty vital for course verification though I would have thought.

[bmike-vt]

So, technically, as in a technicality kind of thing, one needs a SPOT or a log file from a GPS.

I assume he's carrying one for navigation. Here's hoping its recording.

And while I noted above that it could likely be seen as trail magic if one were to find it and return it, the premeditated, searching around for ways to get it to him, etc, is looking like support. No one ran out to deliver a pedal when it was needed, or a new frame this last year.

So he's carrying a GPS and recording, or he's got another SPOT, or he'll have to line up again and get it done, if a record is what he wants.

Everyone else will jus have to wait for the call ins.

[Woodland]

From everything I have ever read or heard about 'Jay P' (and that has been a lot lately given his clear feelings about the new record set this year - did you hear his line in his first call in 'crows fly in flocks and eagles soar alone' - nothing subtle there) I gotta feel that the guy would agree that a replacement SPOT delivery or a convenient 'premeditated trail magic' drop clearly breaches the self-support ideal that he so vehemently treasures. Plus he even mentions in a call-in that maybe he can get one in Butte...

[tetontodd]

I really dont get it, I'm lost in all this rule stuff but does Jay really need his spot to set a record? Or A GPS track? What about recording it himself? Call-Ins to MTB Cast? I guess im off the back please someone clarify!

No one seemed to mind when Jesse lost his spot on the CTR and I think KT delivered him one in Buena Vista(A racer that had dropped out), I dont know, same kind of thing?? grey area??? Im confused, all this cluster of rules and bickering??? Whats right and what's wrong? Carry it in carry it out type of thing? Lose your spot realize it and go back and get it? Its like getting off the trail realize you've done it and go back type of thing?
All I know is Jay is out there killing himself while we sit here and referee his progress. He's got one thing in mind: Get to Antelope Wells before 16days 2hrs!! I'm tired/I might just be totally off...Someone clarify
 

[mtbcast]

Jay Petervary called in from Butte. He’s gearing up and fueling up.


Note: I think Jay, as has been noted, can take or leave the Spot as far as the TT goes. I'm sure he understands that it has become a tool and no doubt provides a benefit for all the reasons stated. I hope he manages to get one for selfish reasons: so I can see his progress. In the end, losing your Spot ultimately brings your integrity to the forefront. I have no worries. Point of note: both riders out on the route are Spotless, so to speak. So it's really old school out there right now!

[DaveH]

Technically, Jesse's spot just stopped working.  He didn't lose it.  It's a bit different for Jay's situation since he lost his.

I don't know the rules for TD that well - sounds like SPOT is required for ITT.  As I understand it, Matthew/Scott are OK with him getting another.

All I have to say is GO JayP! Ride like the wind and don't look back.

[tetontodd]

DH Thanks for clarifying  I knew I didnt know all the facts..sorry Jesse/KT I just remember Jesse's spot sitting in the same spot like JP's for awhile at the bottom of Georgia pass?? So Jesse's spot stopped working? Did he have it the whole time and knew it wasnt working? I better go BACK and read the threads. Hit refresh...Anyway's JP is stoked and moving foreward Big Moon tonight!
 

[ScottM]

We (TL) facilitated quite a few SPOT replacements/mailings/etc during the TD grand depart 'event.'  Spots are different, IMO, in that they really help for course verification.  A GPX file is not as good as points that our code pulls from SPOT's server.  In Jay's case, going for an already stout record, I would much prefer he be transmitting all the time.

Toby's always got the extreme viewpoint, and I respect it, but disagree in this case.  Kurt's point about it being advantageous on the route is a fair one.  Though in most cases we are a commercial entity mailing replacements to POs or commercial establishments, which has long been allowed by self support rules (that'll probably be how Jay gets his replacement).  Just like you could order a replacement GPS from Amazon and have it shipped to a PO ahead on the route.  Toby probably disagrees that even that should be allowed, but then we could spiral into discussions of how far to take it -- to wearing ear plugs, blinders and carrying all your food from day 1.  There are dozens of ways we could ride with even more purity...

[Woodland]

We (TL) facilitated quite a few SPOT replacements/mailings/etc during the TD grand depart 'event.'  Spots are different, IMO, in that they really help for course verification.  A GPX file is not as good as points that our code pulls from SPOT's server.  In Jay's case, going for an already stout record, I would much prefer he be transmitting all the time.

Toby's always got the extreme viewpoint, and I respect it, but disagree in this case.  Kurt's point about it being advantageous on the route is a fair one.  Though in most cases we are a commercial entity mailing replacements to POs or commercial establishments, which has long been allowed by self support rules (that'll probably be how Jay gets his replacement).  Just like you could order a replacement GPS from Amazon and have it shipped to a PO ahead on the route.  Toby probably disagrees that even that should be allowed, but then we could spiral into discussions of how far to take it -- to wearing ear plugs, blinders and carrying all your food from day 1.  There are dozens of ways we could ride with even more purity...

Isn't the sticking point though that other people are doing the mailing for him? I understand I can mail stuff ahead to myself, and that any racer can do that given its to a PO or commercial entity. But if other people start mailing me stuff (even to POs or comm. est.) along the route it sure sounds like outside support to me.

But I guess it comes down to verification in these cases and that seems to be a trump card.

[the tortoise]

My feeling is that the organizers make the rules, exceptions, etc. If someone wants to complain about the rules then start your own event and make it as "pure" as you want.
The bottom line is that most of these events are very hard and to hammer someone to death for accepting a cup of water overshadows the amount of effort they put out to start and complete these event.
To me the spot is more about verification than being of help or assistance to the rider. If someone really wants to cheat then it is a lot easier without a spot than with one. And to say that the emergency button on the spot is seeking outside support is ridiculous! Tell that to the family after the body is recovered. Many of us could not have even toed the line without the spot tracker to reassure the loved ones back at home.
What really ticks me off is that the faster riders on the TD get all the rooms the first few nights!
BUT I digress. Go JP!

[the tortoise]

Near as I can figure out:
Ollie to Butte 4:07
JP to Butte  about 3:16

[mtbcast]

Jay Petervary called in from Wise River. He’s having breakfast and getting ready to head out for Lima!

[ScottM]

Isn't the sticking point though that other people are doing the mailing for him? I understand I can mail stuff ahead to myself, and that any racer can do that given its to a PO or commercial entity. But if other people start mailing me stuff (even to POs or comm. est.) along the route it sure sounds like outside support to me.

See TD rule 5:

http://tourdivide.org/td_rule_5_faqs

Other people (and businesses) can mail you things -- though not food.  Anyone can order a new GPS from Amazon, or get a replacement SPOT rental from us, too.

Tortoise's point is the best one: no bikepacking race that I know of, including TD, is claiming to race by the absolute purest form of self-supported riding.  No matter how extreme and pure Toby thinks his ideal set of rules are, it's easy to come up with an even more extreme viewpoint.  For each event, the rules are the rules, and in the case of the more established races, the rules usually have a lot of careful thought behind them.

It sounds like JayP will be getting a new TL SPOT sometime today.

[Woodland]

Should have read that before replying.

And to Tortoise's point - I am not hammering someone for taking a glass of water. Losing a major piece of gear like a SPOT - especially in today's bikepacking racing world - is a major lapse for a potential record breaking rider and worthy of some discussion.

Yeah I understand how hard these events are and what type of effort is needed. I attempted the CTR myself this year and failed. But let's not forget that at the end of the day you are really just riding your bike, eating big fat breakfasts in town, enjoying the scenery, getting rained on and maybe having some aches and pains  . Mentally, I understand how low you can get and the euphoria that follows after overcoming that is what brings a lot of us back.

Life can be a lot harder than that.

[mtbcast]

Rob Roberts called in from Pie Town. He going try to push to Silver City. This call breaks up a bit towards the end.