TD`13 Race Discussion

[cobbnat]

Here are some interesting pics of the flooding in Alberta. Not exactly on the route, but close enough to give the idea of what is going on there! http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/before-after/alberta-floods/

[lonefrontranger]

The desire to avoid comparison to the elite riders is not a sentiment I've seen expressed anywhere.

The idea is that it would add another level of challenge, opportunity and enjoyment to the race for the serious recreational rider that right now only the pros or semi-pros get to enjoy.

I'm too old, my lifestyle and responsibilities do not permit, and I probably do not possess the genetic potential to challenge an elite pro or semi-pro rider, but I'd like to think I could be competitive with other amateur riders in my category.

with respect I've seen this attitude in competitive road and cross-country racing practically ruin the sport. It's what I've come to know as the "special snowflake" syndrome, or the "everybody gets a trophy" sentiment.  A lot of categories get created and it lengthens the day and cheapens the experience.

Leave the Tour Divide as what it is. It's not a road race. It's not a NORBA race.  There are extremely valid reasons (IMO) why it is neither sanctioned nor commercialized. It's not even "official" in any sense of that meaning with regards to organized sanctioned racing.

Just look at the whole "IV GUY" kerfuffle a few pages back to see what it would become if you start to promote it as an organized event.  The minute you do this, the purity of the purpose of the event is lost, and the rot sets in.

A lot of people have abandoned sanctioned racing for a multitude of reasons, bureaucracy, corruption and commercialism being among the main ones.  The minute you start building categories and setting time limits and spending money on promotion (at any level), you by default change this from a personal challenge into an organized competition, which misses the point entirely.

The Tour Divide competition is at its heart the rider vs. the trail and conditions.  The fact that someone can't be "competitive" with the .001% of elite athletes that lead the pack each year?  I think that's so far outside the intent of this event that it's practically irrelevant.

[Stijn]

James Olsen is tracking again and the race for 3rd between him and Alex Harris is going to be great to watch. Just 5 miles between them at the moment and I don't think they've been more than 10 miles apart for the past 48 hours!

As a Saffa, you know which horse I'm backing

[Pollyhound]

@ Mrs NH - I love your TD update! It's also really good to hear how other blue-dotters are getting on in other parts of the world.

Apologies if this is not really appropriate for this forum and at risk of edging dangerously close to yet another mum forum (i promise - no more), I attach a picture of James Olsen's niece. Feeling neglected with someone else getting all the attention at the moment, she's got a new t-shirt that she hopes will attract her mum's (and Grandparent's!) attention again..

Simply brilliant!  I hope she gets the attention she deserves now she has her very own blue dot.  
JO seems to be slightly off the track at the moment - hope its a tracker issue rather than a wrong turn.

[rapscallion]

Alex Harris is slowly but surely eating his way through the field. Considering that 2 or so months ago he was walking unsupported through the deserts of the Empty Quarter I am amazed at his progress with limited in the saddle training. Having ridden and climbed with Alex for a long time, all I can say is that he is just an amazing cross discipline athlete.

[Dumpster Juice]

1.5 times the record or 2 times the record who cares...the race is for personal gain. Let everyone line up and get the feel of a group start and whenever you finish that is your time, 15 days or 29 days who cares. The whole thing is personal growth. You can't stop people from coming so embrace it. I like watching the front runners, middle of the pack and the ones bringing up the rear. I am 53 and until now could not take the time off or have the money to do the race. Now that I am getting there, you want to tell me I can't. I bet the places along the route love to see the riders coming through. Relax and enjoy it for what it is...FUN!

[MTRoad]

I admit this is my first time following this "race" but is it a "race"??  I have been riding a long time and have done a lot of different races from road, Tri, and MTB - but personally have always thought of 12 hour, 24 hour and any endurance event to be that an event in which I just wanted to prove to myself that I could do it. I see this that same way - they say "race" but in general I think most people do it to finish. 

That said I give big props to anyone attempting to do this - I would never do it myself but I can appreciate the time and effort put into it.  Way to go for everyone.

And to C$'s mum - he is killing it very impressive and you have every right to be proud!  My buddy is also on SS and I tell him he is nuts can not wait for him to return to talk about this adventure!

C

[AZtrailertrash]

1.5 times the record or 2 times the record who cares...the race is for personal gain. Let everyone line up and get the feel of a group start and whenever you finish that is your time, 15 days or 29 days who cares. The whole thing is personal growth. You can't stop people from coming so embrace it. I like watching the front runners, middle of the pack and the ones bringing up the rear. I am 53 and until now could not take the time off or have the money to do the race. Now that I am getting there, you want to tell me I can't. I bet the places along the route love to see the riders coming through. Relax and enjoy it for what it is...FUN!

My sentiments almost completely and exactly.  I went up to near Mack's Inn to be outdoors, to camp, to fly fish some of the finest waters in the USA, to see Yellowstone National Park... did I mention to do all the things I love to do... outdoors. That I happened to bring my Niner WFO mountain bike to ride above Jackson on Teton pass was a bonus. Alex was right about the Grand Tetons being drop dead gorgeous near sunset... he was in the right place, and the right time when it happened... good on him!

Are they truly competitors?  Don't know, don't care to speculate... I do know that in the end, all of them will be in rarified company, a common kinship, they all were there for the Grand departee with the same goal, regardless of if they achieved it or not.  A reunion is in order for any Tour Divide rider, finisher or not, they are all kindred spirits.

[mikepro]

1.5 times the record or 2 times the record who cares...the race is for personal gain. Let everyone line up and get the feel of a group start and whenever you finish that is your time, 15 days or 29 days who cares.

I do, for one.  I like the spirit of attempting to challenge the course and finish within a certain range or percentage of the current fastest time.  That's what inspires and challenges me.  That's what the spirit of the event means to me after I read the TDR website.  That's part of fun and personal growth for me, from my rookie ride in 2010, through following the race every year since and choosing to be an active follower and contributor to this forum, to planning another go at it next year.  I'm competitive, and the TDR is riding the GDMBR in a competitive fashion.  Lining up next to a bunch of other strange boys and girls with the common goal of hauling-ass along the same route, from the same start time, in the same fashion (self-supported, no drafting) is what MAKES it special for me and enhances the experience and adventure, rather than ruins it.

Nobody is telling you that you can't ride the route from start to finish as fast as you can, in either direction, at any time, at any age, at any ability, on any bike.  Go for it.  The route has been there since the mid-90's and will always be there.  The towns and places and people are there regardless of TDR, Grand Depart, or whatever.   It's always about you and the route or trail and all about personal growth, and it's only your life in the end.  That's basic and foundational.  Once you enter an event, in this case called TDR, you are upping the ante and making it more about the route/trail/growth.  You are making it additionally about racing and competing against others.  The 'R' in TDR stands for Race.

[JRA]

There seems to be a number of more "mature" riders interested in the TD, (myself included).  
Perhaps there could be a separate start a week or so after The Grand Depart for the more mature crowd, - "The Grand Defart"

[ChrisE]

I agree entirely with what Dumpster said.

And I might even be there for the -7day Grand de-Fart!

C

[Gunnar Berg]

Sue $,

You know we're all following Cjell. Give us a call if you are ABSOLUTELY bursting.  ;-)

-Gunnar

[mtbcast]

J.D. Pauls called in from the Buffalo Valley Cafe near Moran, WY. Eric Foster called in from Pinedale. Brett Simpson called in from Rawlins. Cjell Money called in from the route past the rail trail. Jason Gaikowski called in to say he is OUT! And Joshua Weinfeld called in to say he is OUT!
http://mtbcast.com/site2/category/td13/

[Majcolo]

with respect I've seen this attitude in competitive road and cross-country racing practically ruin the sport. It's what I've come to know as the "special snowflake" syndrome, or the "everybody gets a trophy" sentiment.  A lot of categories get created and it lengthens the day and cheapens the experience.

Leave the Tour Divide as what it is. It's not a road race. It's not a NORBA race.  There are extremely valid reasons (IMO) why it is neither sanctioned nor commercialized. It's not even "official" in any sense of that meaning with regards to organized sanctioned racing.

Just look at the whole "IV GUY" kerfuffle a few pages back to see what it would become if you start to promote it as an organized event.  The minute you do this, the purity of the purpose of the event is lost, and the rot sets in.

A lot of people have abandoned sanctioned racing for a multitude of reasons, bureaucracy, corruption and commercialism being among the main ones.  The minute you start building categories and setting time limits and spending money on promotion (at any level), you by default change this from a personal challenge into an organized competition, which misses the point entirely.

The Tour Divide competition is at its heart the rider vs. the trail and conditions.  The fact that someone can't be "competitive" with the .001% of elite athletes that lead the pack each year?  I think that's so far outside the intent of this event that it's practically irrelevant.

Also with respect - all friends together here as far as I'm concerned:

For the record, I was not suggesting or advocating any (further) commercialization or sanctioning of the race, or changing anything about the race or the way it is organized for that matter. I was only suggesting that the data that is already being collected be parsed a little differently for the community that already exists around this race.

However, you may be suffering from the same delusion that I was earlier in this thread; that the TD is primarily about self discovery and personal limits. It can still be about that (and will be about that for me when I do it), but as Matt pointed out to me a few pages back this non-event event is very much a race. Races are about results, and much of what you're concerned about has already started at some level.

In brevets there is always a healthy tension between the competitive instincts of some of the cyclists participating and the idea of an honorable finishing time. Fast times are respected and applauded, but there's no "winner" declared and no one can use their "victory" to endorse products like they can (and do) with the TD.

Finally, with respect to the negative comments about people wanting recognition for their accomplishments, obviously most of us do appreciate a kind word or acknowledgement of our efforts or we wouldn't be participating in an internet forum and we wouldn't tell anyone beyond our close friends when we ride a grand tour or ITT an established route.

[Majcolo]

There seems to be a number of more "mature" riders interested in the TD, (myself included). 
Perhaps there could be a separate start a week or so after The Grand Depart for the more mature crowd, - "The Grand Defart"

LOL! It's tempting to create a signature with this.

[Roland Sturm]

This is under ultra-racing, so yes, there should be some standard that is noticeably different from a bike tour. The route has been around for much longer than the race, I've been on it myself first 10 years ago following McCoy's book as have hundreds of other riders each year. The race is a new thing and meant to be a race to add a challenge, not a cheap way to join a pre-organized group tour. So if somebody just looks for an adventure, go tour it.  I did tour the route before and lined up at the race later because then I wanted to do the whole thing fast.

Effort and time does matter for TDR, so I see nothing wrong with cutpoints. Very much like randonneuring: It isn't a professional event, but it is going to be hard for anybody. It was silly to see the time in McCoy's book mentioned here as a comparison, this book was to make the route accessible to pretty much anybody.  Mac himself doesn't race, still dragging along his Bob trailer in this picture I took when I met him on the route 2 years ago (in Montana, he was riding south as I was going north). He thinks of the race as a surprising new development, not the main mode of experiencing the route he developed. So for history and perspective, this is how the man himself approaches the route. Why not holding off with TDR until you have done something like that first?

I also would pay attention to what serious riders, but not racers, like Mathieu have to say. He has ridden the whole route in both directions, a distinction few people have, and even though he was thinking about doing it as a race not long ago, decided instead to tour again. Actually, if I remember it right, a picture of Mathieu is even on a cover of one of the maps (on the maps, the picture below is McCoy).

I would be in favor of a pre-stated challenging time-cutoff. The main reason is that the field at the start is getting too big for an underground race and harmful for the TD character itself. A challenging cut would probably reduce the number at the start, even when there is no way to enforce it. Several TD characteristics such as self-supported, no-drafting, remoteness, wilderness-experience become meaningless in big groups.

[ScottM]

Mike Hall will be rolling into Abiquiu any minute now.  The detour around Santa Fe NF is pretty obvious (Highway 96 west to Cuba).  Is it actually signed closed on the ground?  Can he talk his way into permission to pass through the forest?  In '04 I was able to get a special permit to pass through closed NF in New Mexico, but I had to appear in person at the forest office.  I am sure Mike has some 'traveling' savvy learned on the World Cycle Race.  We'll see which way his dot moves soon enough.

Too bad about the Gila closure, on top of this one.  So it goes in the west.

[ComoDepot]

Alex and James blew through Como, I did not see them.

Looks like Liam will be here about 5pm, Brian maybe tonight, maybe tomorrow.

[spcabin75]

It’s got me thinking.  Thoughts but not many answers.

I’d love to do the TD and maybe I might.  I’d want to do it as a personal challenge to ride the course, unsupported in the best time I could.  I’m 50 and do some 10/15day alpine tours unsupported but no way could ever go as fast as many of the TD front 10 guys and probably couldn’t do it within 1.5 times Mike Halls time.

What I would want to do though is line up at Banff and experience it.  Being in the back 50% I would hope for good camaraderie and a sense of different but shared achievement to the guys who you might see one day, spend an hour with then see again 5 days later at a lodge or diner.  Of course I wouldn’t see Mike Hall or Craig anytime after 5 minutes from the start and that’s fine.  I would see guys from all over the world and share a purpose.  I know I can do ITT any time but maybe that’s not enough of what I want.  Maybe TD is the only way a guy from the other side of the world can get this experiance?

Is it fair that I can’t have that?  Would my ride really detract from the top 10 guys who never saw me after Banff?  Are the guys who are doing it this year for a kids charity, who may well be ‘timed out’ on the 1.5x rule to be discouraged from taking part?

C

Well said Chris.  I concur 100%

[the tortoise]

Now back to our regularly scheduled program!

Will he or won't he??

My friend I rode with last year, Prentiss Campbell is just killing it on his single speed and is averaging around 30 miles more per day!

Kent Davidson has a lead on Mike Hodges of around 30 miles. The old farts race is really close and exciting to watch!

Good luck to all!