TD`13 Race Discussion

[Olefin]

Mike Hall is off route - looks like he's lost. Eek!
Point #2617

[richNYC]

I would expect something like that near Hatchita.

If my GPS coordinates (44.526871, -111.345152) are accurate this is around Island Park, ID, from my GDMTBR tour in '07;)

[mikepro]

It looks like a little confusion with the reroute up front.

From 13+ days of brainless following a line on a GPS screen to having to think about written cues, or cues written down from the call-in voice recording, and having to pay attention to odometer numbers and/or do some mental math?  Probably a cue that says "turn left on such and such, after such and such a distance" and he's making sure he didn't blow by it.  Or, something else entirely.

[richNYC]

Mike Hall is off route - looks like he's lost. Eek!
Point #2617

He seems to be back on track again;) It looks like he backtracked a little to make sure he is on the right road...

[Majcolo]

Yeezus, Toby G and Newfy D, enough already.  Maybe take your discussion to another thread or PM each other to sort it out.  Savvy?

 The Brit has definitely done well to show what's possible.  A big "re-set" for expectations moving forward.  

No kidding! He's an incredible athlete. I have to write a new training plan...

[Mathewsen]

~140 miles per day minimum to be "competitive" now, regardless of conditions. Possibly 150 if Stappler had stayed in to push things along. Interesting.

Again, as the record becomes more super human, the higher that scale / % climbs. Read here again. Falling records may only affect the men's 25-day standard marginally. Just as likely to lower a competitive standard are equipment improvements, obsessive amts of info on the route, and trail angels on every corner  . The best path to more 25-day performances is to convince people not to make TD their first ever bike race, convince them to leave the kitchen sink at home, and strongly encourage them to dally less in towns / motels / push to the edge of their ability (leave much less in the tank daily) as was intended by the originators of Divide racing.

An idea Scott M. and I have batted around for TD that would be purely about social pressure is staging a virtual fight to remain on the primary TD live race tracker by establishing that if you fall behind the 25 day flag (or 27 or whatever seems fair), then you fall off the primary tracker and get moved over to Trackleaders' GDMBR 'citizen' tracker, which is organized for all tourists who thru-riding the route with a SPOT tracker. Falling off the primary map doesn't mean one is time-cut or won't be a TD finisher, it's just a bit more incentive to, 'pedal damnit'. I'm sure we'd get hell for it, but hey...

[mikepro]

I'm sure we'd get hell for it, but hey...

Fishing for feedback per chance? I'll bite...
Surely you'd catch flak, judging by what's been said to date in this thread and others.  But, you'd get mad props from me.  It is Scott's website and/or brainchild after all, is it not?  He can code whatever he wants into TL. Ultimately, peeps don't have to register their Spot with TL, let alone use a Spot in the first place.

[multisportscott]

Again, as the record becomes more super human, the higher that scale / % climbs. Read here again. Falling records may only affect the men's 25-day standard marginally. Just as likely to lower a competitive standard are equipment improvements, obsessive amts of info on the route, and trail angels on every corner  . The best path to more 25-day performances is to convince people not to make TD their first ever bike race, convince them to leave the kitchen sink at home, and strongly encourage them to dally less in towns / motels / push to the edge of their ability (leave much less in the tank daily) as was intended by the originators of Divide racing.

An idea Scott M. and I have batted around for TD that would be purely about social pressure is staging a virtual fight to remain on the primary TD live race tracker by establishing that if you fall behind the 25 day flag, then you fall off the primary tracker and get moved over to Trackleaders' GDMBR 'citizen' tracker, which is organized for all tourists who thru-riding the route with a SPOT tracker. Falling off the primary map doesn't mean one is time-cut or won't be a TD finisher, it's just a bit more incentive to, 'pedal damnit'. I'm sure we'd get hell for it, but hey...

I think this is an awesome idea Mathew.
It's "your" event so who cares if you get hell for it.
I fully agree about your "not to make TD their first ever bike race" comment.
Thanks for all of your's and Scott Morris efforts.
Cheers, Scott

[BobM]

Fishing for feedback per chance? I'll bite...
Surely you'd catch flak, judging by what's been said to date in this thread and others.  But, you'd get mad props from me.  It is Scott's website and/or brainchild after all, is it not?  He can code whatever he wants into TL. Ultimately, peeps don't have to register their Spot with TL, let alone use a Spot in the first place.

It would add a level of interest BUT......it would make riders MORE aware of technology, so if a goal is to wean riders from outside web-checking, this would be counter-productive.  Also, how would that work for non-Grand Depart riders - more seem to be leaving a day or more earlier than the GD.

[Mathewsen]

It would add a level of interest BUT......it would make riders MORE aware of technology, so if a goal is to wean riders from outside web-checking, this would be counter-productive.  Also, how would that work for non-Grand Depart riders - more seem to be leaving a day or more earlier than the GD.

Nah...Time splits for 25-day or 27-day pace would be (manually) well-established ahead of time. Riders would know simply by where they slept each night where they stood / if they were in jeopardy of falling to 'Citizen' status.

[vmjim]

Is Mike Hall not taking the C. D. T. alternate route?  What the heck is the orange track line?

[Mathewsen]

Is Mike Hall not taking the C. D. T. alternate route?  What the heck is the orange track line?

The Gila is closed from Beaverhead to Hwy 35. He's taking the Bursom Rd reroute.

I think this is an awesome idea Mathew.
It's "your" event so who cares if you get hell for it.
I fully agree about your "not to make TD their first ever bike race" comment.
Thanks for all of your's and Scott Morris efforts.
Cheers, Scott

No, no...not 'my' event...yeah, the 'Ride the Divide' effect will wear off eventually...our pleasure

[vmjim]

I assume the Bursom Rd reroute is pavement.

[lonefrontranger]

I assume the Bursom Rd reroute is pavement.

my shaky memories of riding around that area after dropping out of the Tour of the Gila in 2010 tell me it's smooth dirt, but I could be wrong.

ETA anyone calling rural NM hard surface roads "pavement" are using only the most generous applications of the term. I learned to appreciate well maintained dirt secondaries because the chipseal alternatives that serve as "main routes" were frequently much, much nastier.

[BobM]

Nah...Time splits for 25-day or 27-day pace would be (manually) well-established ahead of time. Riders would know simply by where they slept each night where they stood / if they were in jeopardy of falling to 'Citizen' status.

I see, so not the traveling Trackleader flag, but time splits for select locations, like the GDR used to do.  That would be awesome.  I remember Jon Billman's Outside article where he described getting into Steamboat 12 hours ahead of the cutoff.  It sounds like that carrot/stick definitely pushed him, as it did when he raced to the border and made it by something like 1/2 hour.

[vmjim]

When I use the term 'pavement' I also envision a painted line down the middle.  Being from the DC area maybe I should call a ‘dirt’ road a ‘natural surface’ road.

[elveepee]

I assume the Bursom Rd reroute is pavement.

No, it is mostly gravel about equal to the closed route, with elevation reaching about 9200 feet. It is also known as forest rd 28. Mike will hit some rough pavement as he descends to route 180 from the Ghost town of Mogollon. It is wild country with bears, elk, and a lot of solitude.

[bmike-vt]

Adding a little rally racing / randonneurring to the divide. That is cool with me. In randonneuring, if you miss a time cut you can keep riding (often because you have to still get back to the start) - and an organizer can waive a missed cut assuming you still finish by the last closing time. The time cut for events up to 600k works out to be something like 9.3333 mph form start of the clock. The clock never stops - so when you do, you have to balance resupply times and time off the bike. On a 600k and up - the faster you ride, the more sleep you can get (if you are not riding straight through).

It would be interesting to see how that mapped out over the TD. It's in the same spirit as the current cutoff, but the times are fixed so they don't change when a fast rider sets a record. No matter how fast you ride, you can't leave a checkpoint until it opens. But you can stay until long after close, so long as you can make up the time. For the TD, just project out the splits based on some overall daily cut off. And add a broom wagon or grim reaper to the tracker. Those that try, and fail, but are out there for the right reasons won't care when the reaper passes them by (much like I've still finished a randonneuring event I knew halfway through I wasn't going to get credit for). Those that would be upset by this gentle nudge should probably find something else to do with their time.

[Mathewsen]

I see, so not the traveling Trackleader flag, but time splits for select locations, like the GDR used to do.  That would be awesome.  I remember Jon Billman's Outside article where he described getting into Steamboat 12 hours ahead of the cutoff.  It sounds like that carrot/stick definitely pushed him, as it did when he raced to the border and made it by something like 1/2 hour.

yes, traveling flags, just possibly averaged across all 25-day performances, not just 2012 riders. Maybe there's a 12-hr buffer period when those in jeopardy turn to faded blue, then default off. The fun part would be watching some fight their back onto the big boy / girl map. Again, not a cut off, just one map more elite than the other. If social media has changed the face of the event, then perhaps it can be used more pointedly to motivate riders.   

[Donald]

Again, as the record becomes more super human, the higher that scale / % climbs. Read here again. Falling records may only affect the men's 25-day standard marginally. Just as likely to lower a competitive standard are equipment improvements, obsessive amts of info on the route, and trail angels on every corner  . The best path to more 25-day performances is to convince people not to make TD their first ever bike race, convince them to leave the kitchen sink at home, and strongly encourage them to dally less in towns / motels / push to the edge of their ability (leave much less in the tank daily) as was intended by the originators of Divide racing.

An idea Scott M. and I have batted around for TD that would be purely about social pressure is staging a virtual fight to remain on the primary TD live race tracker by establishing that if you fall behind the 25 day flag (or 27 or whatever seems fair), then you fall off the primary tracker and get moved over to Trackleaders' GDMBR 'citizen' tracker, which is organized for all tourists who thru-riding the route with a SPOT tracker. Falling off the primary map doesn't mean one is time-cut or won't be a TD finisher, it's just a bit more incentive to, 'pedal damnit'. I'm sure we'd get hell for it, but hey...

I do not understand where this impulse to divide riders into sheep and goats comes from. What is the problem you are trying to solve? Why is it a problem that there are many more riders in the 25day+ category?

The course itself can absorb many more riders than currently participate. The idea that this vast course is swamped by 130 riders is ludicrous.

The efforts of elite riders are not hampered by those behind. The fast riders get first pick of all resupply opportunities. It's the back of the race that has to scramble for lithium batteries in Ovando. Many sporting events manage to be elite and mass participation events at the same time. Look at the major city marathons.

The race has no infrastructure on the ground. There are no marshals who need to go home, no signs that need to be taken down. There's just the spy in the sky and Mr SPOT does not get tired.

So why is the increased popularity of the TD a problem? The answer can only be that some of you think the character of the event has changed for the worse. You prefer a smaller field of more dedicated, more athletic racers. In a sense, you cannot argue with that point of view. It's a point of view that doesn't need to be justified and if those who currently control the race hold that view and take steps to slim down the race to something more like it was a few years ago, then you are free to do that.

All I would say is that please don't assume that your initiative will succeed. The interest in broader participation is clearly there. I doubt if it will go away.

There used to be a race called the GDMBR. It no longer exists. The TD proved to be a more popular format. The TD has no right to thrive or even survive. You might succeed in pushing away a lot of 25+day riders but don't assume all the elite riders will stay.

My guess is that a new event would spring up successfully catering for elite and broader participation riders and the TD could be left with half a dozen gnarly old diehards talking about the good old days.