TD`13 Race Discussion

[SlowDave]

I have been on pace for 26 days for most of the race. Then on Monday I screwed up coming down Magnus before the baptist church water fill.  I have no idea what happened but I crashed and had to take an hour and a half ambulance ride to Socorro(I think that was the city). My son who is racing this year as well (we ride all day alone because his pace is much faster than mine. He was at the church wondering where I was when I showed up in complete disarray. He accompanied me in the ambulance. They stitched my ear, eye, right knee, right elbow, left elbow(plus added a tube in the elbow) and I hurt my back.  24 hrs later we got a ride back to the church where our bikes were and pushed on. Still trying for 27 days we started up the CDT last night late(we did not do the reroute because we came to do as much of the whole original route as possible. All of a sudden about 11pm last night my son became violently ill. Throwing up literally all night. We knew we could not come back down to the Sapilla CG until daylight. Took three hours to walk down with my completely delirious child( who had been talking about doing it next year without me in 23 days. A forest ranger said he was in trouble and needed to have an ambulance get him to Silver City.  So here I sit waiting on the answer of what is going on with my son.  And he says to me, "dad we are going to finish thing one way or another.
We have trained for three years for this race as much as possible.  Not all of us just ride bicycles all day every day.  Family school and kids are part of life.
I am done ranting, but if the doc allows him to continue and we do in fact finish.  Would probably be 30 days at this point and if you elitist assess thinks that's too long. Then the hell with you all.  Make it a professional race.


Peter D Kraft Sr.

Best 2013 TD post yet!

[DaveH]

I can understand the reasoning behind having a time cut but in practice it doesn't make sense. TD is an ITT, right? The Grand Depart is to provide added motivation for that ITT effort, right? Or is it a race? The ITT vs. race issue is nearly always at the heart of these heated discussions it seems.

If it's an ITT, it is (and should be) a personal experience. Time cuts have no place in this context.

If it's a race, racers are directly compared to their peers, putting emphasis on how fast one is compared to the leader.

So, what exactly is TD again? I haven't raced in a few years, maybe things have changed

[AZtrailertrash]

No cut-off times, The whole concept is lame.  keep it low key so I as serious cyclist of 60 will give it a shot, to push myself beyond expectations, to experience loneliness, a very sore body, camaraderie and a great sense of accomplishment if i were to hold together for the 2750 miles.  

If you want cut-offs join a racing league.  Speaking of which, dont you think that MB suppliers of gear want desperately to start using this ride as advertising bait.   Cut-off times are a first step to the evils of corporate involvement through "quite" participation.  

As a blue dot addicted soul, i watch not the leaders but someone i dont know in the middle of the pack who has trained, prepared and now in the saddle.  Last year it was Georg, Ellen & Marco, this year prentice.

Bingo, corporate frame makers are in it this year in a big way... Pivot... Lynskey, full sponsored riders showing up, to make it an advertising stunt for their equipment... sad, really, really sad... Mike Hall could ride anything fast... 95% rider talent, 5% equipment.

3rd place from South Africa, Alex Harris, was riding a fully sponsored Lynskey.  You see where this is going?  Dejay Birtch was a Niner employee when he raced it, think he took 10th or 11th, not good enough for Niner to use it for copy.  But Carla Hukee over at Niner was congratulating a Niner rider this year for finishing the TD all over Facebook.   This is becoming an equipment race, with full factory sponsorships by pro's, pushing to run the average  extreme endurance rider out of this. It is becoming all about the money, and money changes everything... just look at the Leadville 100, and Lance, and Levi.

[AZtrailertrash]

I have been on pace for 26 days for most of the race. Then on Monday I screwed up coming down Magnus before the baptist church water fill.  I have no idea what happened but I crashed and had to take an hour and a half ambulance ride to Socorro(I think that was the city). My son who is racing this year as well (we ride all day alone because his pace is much faster than mine. He was at the church wondering where I was when I showed up in complete disarray. He accompanied me in the ambulance. They stitched my ear, eye, right knee, right elbow, left elbow(plus added a tube in the elbow) and I hurt my back.  24 hrs later we got a ride back to the church where our bikes were and pushed on. Still trying for 27 days we started up the CDT last night late(we did not do the reroute because we came to do as much of the whole original route as possible. All of a sudden about 11pm last night my son became violently ill. Throwing up literally all night. We knew we could not come back down to the Sapilla CG until daylight. Took three hours to walk down with my completely delirious child( who had been talking about doing it next year without me in 23 days. A forest ranger said he was in trouble and needed to have an ambulance get him to Silver City.  So here I sit waiting on the answer of what is going on with my son.  And he says to me, "dad we are going to finish thing one way or another.
We have trained for three years for this race as much as possible.  Not all of us just ride bicycles all day every day.  Family school and kids are part of life.
I am done ranting, but if the doc allows him to continue and we do in fact finish.  Would probably be 30 days at this point and if you elitist assess thinks that's too long. Then the hell with you all.  Make it a professional race.


Peter D Kraft Sr.

Pure Gold, and exactly what I've seen the past 4 or 5 years of this Tour Divide gig being about.....  This quote belongs in the Cordillera book, because this is the intent and spirit that the grass roots promoters have been promoting from day 1. Long may it last.

[BobM]

Bingo, corporate frame makers are in it this year in a big way... Pivot... Lynskey, full sponsored riders showing up, to make it an advertising stunt for their equipment... sad, really, really sad... Mike Hall could ride anything fast... 95% rider talent, 5% equipment.

3rd place from South Africa, Alex Harris, was riding a fully sponsored Lynskey.  You see where this is going?  Dejay Birtch was a Niner employee when he raced it, think he took 10th or 11th, not good enough for Niner to use it for copy.  But Carla Hukee over at Niner was congratulating a Niner rider this year for finishing the TD all over Facebook.   This is becoming an equipment race, with full factory sponsorships by pro's, pushing to run the average  extreme endurance rider out of this. It is becoming all about the money, and money changes everything... just look at the Leadville 100, and Lance, and Levi.

The great thing is that this event is that it is so difficult and lengthy that equipment will never be the deciding factor, although it doesn't hurt to have a brand-new top-of-the-line bike and the company infrastructure supporting a rider.  If I remember correctly, Matthew Lee was still getting Cannondale equipment supplied to him when he raced it (not sure if he was still on their team at that time); I saw a video of a Salsa rider (can't remember who) saying how awesome the prototype crank he was using was and how it was too bad that it wasn't available to the public.  In the end, it still comes down to the rider and if the equipment manufacturers want to take credit, that is between them and their sponsored riders.  If the riders can swallow their pride in exchange for the gear and money, then so be it.

[Pizzaz]

How exactly is corporate involvement with a rider any different now to how its been in the past and (controversial point) so what if a rider has corporate sponsors?  Does anyone feel that Mike's (and JP's and Matt's and... ) effort is in any way diminished because there is some corporate involvement with the rider?

I consider myself pretty lucky - I have a good job and supportive home life that means that I can afford the time to train for race like Tour Divide... I can also afford to pick and choose and buy the gear I want - I get some support from by local bike shop through reduced prices etc but probably not a lot more than any other valued customer.  Others are not so lucky - to follow the sport they're talented enough to have sponsors around to help with the cost and time.  So why shouldn't the sponsor be able to capitalise on the investment?

Sure, we all know that Mike could have probably won on a Huffy... so what's the harm in Pivot getting out and saying 'hey look, a guy riding our bike did this amazing thing'?

Corporate involvement in athletes is not evil... the guys competing in events like TDR at the top level are amazing athletes and by the way have amazing stories to tell... surely this is the sort of role model we want out there for our kids rather than the roadie scene or heaven forbid other sorts of professional sport?

I'm not sure how this is pushing the average endurance rider out?  Sure its pretty intimidating to think someone can cover the distance in sub 15 days but really... if that puts you off then perhaps the even isn't for you in first place?  I heard tales of what it was like to be at the front (say top 10) of the race and it was a different experience to mine... which I'm sure is different again to those that are still out there... that doesn't make any of it less valid or 'better' just different.

If the race aspect puts you off... show up on a different weekend to the GD and just through-ride - no-one puts a gun to anyone's head and says you must be there on the 2nd Friday in June or it doesn't count.  I suspect that most finishers would be finishers no-matter when they chose to ride.

[sthig]

I was sponsored by niner.

[BobM]

In the interest of full disclosure, I should state that I was sponsored by NUUN (40% off retail on hydration tablets) and Sawyer (6 free bottles of sunscreen).

[Done]

I can understand the reasoning behind having a time cut but in practice it doesn't make sense. TD is an ITT, right? The Grand Depart is to provide added motivation for that ITT effort, right? Or is it a race? The ITT vs. race issue is nearly always at the heart of these heated discussions it seems.

If it's an ITT, it is (and should be) a personal experience. Time cuts have no place in this context.

If it's a race, racers are directly compared to their peers, putting emphasis on how fast one is compared to the leader.

So, what exactly is TD again? I haven't raced in a few years, maybe things have changed

Gotta agree with Dave on this.

Time cuts seem arbitrary at best. The best way to compare yourself to others is to check your placement. The best way to compare yourself to yourself is to check the time. Doing both would seem to provide plenty of motivation!

[Jilleo]

I can understand the reasoning behind having a time cut but in practice it doesn't make sense. TD is an ITT, right? The Grand Depart is to provide added motivation for that ITT effort, right? Or is it a race? The ITT vs. race issue is nearly always at the heart of these heated discussions it seems.

That really is the central issue isn't it? And until it's defined, it is pretty pointless to go into the semantics. As an individual time trial, every individual gets to set their own goals. It works, but as Kristin mentioned, there are implications to the group start "race" that may eventually force the issue. Every year I'm a bit surprised when there's no crackdown, by Parks Canada or the Forest Service or some other authority. Will there be in the future? Tough to say. Just how big can a grassroots "event" get before it's corralled into the restrictive channels of permits, insurance, and for-profit involvement?

Not to say that cut-offs should be used to somehow reduce the field. I honestly do not care about cut-offs, official or not, as they apply to anyone but myself. I'm an untalented but enthusiastic runner who's benefitted from entering races with cut-offs. They've helped me push my own limits, that I might not have otherwise if I didn't have some outside benchmark out there, lighting a fire under my ass. That's the only reason I spoke out in support of them when they were initially mentioned, and again when I was called out to defend my position. I don't think anyone should be encouraged to stop racing just because they hit some setbacks or unexpected difficulties. But to those who so adamantly disagree with an arbitrary standard of 25 days, I'm curious ... why? One of the greatest benefits of "racing" the Tour Divide as opposed to touring the GDMBR is attaining the impossible. Why go into this endeavor aiming for anything less?

Also, "corporate encroachment" is not a big issue. Matt Lee was a Cannondale Factory rider when he first rode the Great Divide Race in 2004. John Stamstad was sponsored by Chevy Trucks back in '99. Sponsorships are hardly a new thing in this game.

[sthig]

I drafted off a cow in NM

[drews256]

The more time limits you put on it, the more the "race" is actually a race, the more parks Canada or the USFS are going to want permits. Yet another reason not to have these arbitrary time limits or limit what the race can be for those of us that may not be super human athletes. 

[LiveTrout]

This arguement is stupid. If you line up in Banff with the intent to push yourself the whole way to Antelope Wells then you deserve credit for the finish. Shit happens. The glory in this race is to finish and as a rookie you don't know if 25 days is possible. If you finish, whatever your time, you're a badass in my mind.

Cut-off, soft cut-off, different GD times/days, doesn't matter, not good ideas. The fact this event/experience is by its very nature defying ideas & attempts to regulation prompted by increased numbers, etc, shows how "large" and incredibly unique the TD is. The competition comes from so many angles and forms, even stages and levels, that to apply anymore common race organization just results in boiling down to definitions an event which begs NOT to be included.
It's the nature of the Tour Divide.

[Done]

But to those who so adamantly disagree with an arbitrary standard of 25 days, I'm curious ... why?

You seem to be arguing that time limits help motivate people. Maybe--but only if the arbitrary cut-off closely aligns to their limits. But for an arbitrary cut-off to match the fitness of the bulk of the racers seems rather unlikely.  For strong riders, staying under 25 days may present no challenge--and therefore it won't serve to motivate them. For an older rider, 25 days may be impossible--and therefore very UNmotivating. The only people that it might motivate are a handful of racers who happen to capable of 26 days without an extra push, but who might use the cut-off pressure to hit 25. Really, how many of those are out there at any given time? Why add a rule that really only has the potential to apply to a few racers? Further, it seems silly to even assume that people need extra motivation. If they want to place well, then they'll have to ride hard!

If the issue isn't motivation (as you seem to argue), but rather too many people (as seems likely to occur), then there might be fairer ways to address it. As some have already suggested, adding extra starting days might work. Self-professed fast guys could start a week ahead of self-professed slow guys. That would give the businesses along the route time to restock, clean rooms, etc. It won't hurt anything if a few people end up in the wrong starting group, as long as the majority get it right.

Edit: By "too many people," I mean too many racers for Parks Canada or for the small B&Bs, stores, etc.

[EMathy]

This argument happens every year. And every year it's as asinine as it's ever been. Not to begrudge or belittle anyone who is getting all emotionally or intellectually involved, but the whole thing is silly.

Step away from the keyboard. Get on your bike. Remember what this forum is really all about. Case closed.

[EMathy]

And I blame Scott Thigpen for drawing me into this. But it was worth it to read that he'd drafted a cow in NM. Having grown up in WI, I know this means Scott was either riding at 2mph or that was on HELL of a fast cow.

Nonetheless, Scott needs to be DQ'd as a result.

[jape]

I have been on pace for 26 days for most of the race. Then on Monday I screwed up coming down Magnus before the baptist church water fill.  I have no idea what happened but I crashed and had to take an hour and a half ambulance ride to Socorro(I think that was the city). My son who is racing this year as well (we ride all day alone because his pace is much faster than mine. He was at the church wondering where I was when I showed up in complete disarray. He accompanied me in the ambulance. They stitched my ear, eye, right knee, right elbow, left elbow(plus added a tube in the elbow) and I hurt my back.  24 hrs later we got a ride back to the church where our bikes were and pushed on. Still trying for 27 days we started up the CDT last night late(we did not do the reroute because we came to do as much of the whole original route as possible. All of a sudden about 11pm last night my son became violently ill. Throwing up literally all night. We knew we could not come back down to the Sapilla CG until daylight. Took three hours to walk down with my completely delirious child( who had been talking about doing it next year without me in 23 days. A forest ranger said he was in trouble and needed to have an ambulance get him to Silver City.  So here I sit waiting on the answer of what is going on with my son.  And he says to me, "dad we are going to finish thing one way or another.
We have trained for three years for this race as much as possible.  Not all of us just ride bicycles all day every day.  Family school and kids are part of life.
I am done ranting, but if the doc allows him to continue and we do in fact finish.  Would probably be 30 days at this point and if you elitist assess thinks that's too long. Then the hell with you all.  Make it a professional race.


Peter D Kraft Sr.

Amen! I truly hope he is ok now and looking forward to seeing your two blue dots in AW any day now!

[Done]

Remember what this forum is really all about. Case closed.

We aren't allowed to discuss issues that affect the Tour Divide, or ultra-racing in general, on this forum?

[EMathy]

We aren't allowed to discuss issues that affect the Tour Divide, or ultra-racing in general, on this forum?

Well, here is an honest question: Why do you think it really matters what anyone on this forum thinks about the TD "rules"? I mean, really. It's Matt's deal. He has a vision of what it is and isn't. Ya'all can postulate all you want about staggered starts, what you think should happen, etc. But why in the world you would really believe you have any real say, in the end?

Plus, to be blunt about it, 'cause I'm in a blunt kind of mood: It's the Tour Divide. As an entity, as a "thing", it's bigger than any of you. You can try to wrap a bunch of crazy rules around it, argue until you are blue in the face, spar over vernacular, what have you. In the end, it doesn't matter.

Why? Because it's the Tour Divide. The rules are simple: You start in Banff. You ride the route. You carry what you carry. You scrounge what you scrounge. You meet incredible people, be they other riders or locals or motorcyclists or cows, along the way who will change your life. If you're lucky, skilled, fit, stubborn as a mule, and can suffer, you *may* make Antelope Wells. You may not. In the end, regardless of if you make it there or scratch, regardless of if you break a record or stumble in 30 days later, it will change your life forever.

And so I say, this yearly argument about sponsors, cut offs, all that? It belittles what the Tour Divide truly is. Have fun arguing, if you want. But it's meaningless. Completely and utterly. Argue about the rules for other races, that are smaller and less life altering, that can be defined by splitting hairs and making rules. The Tour Divide defies all that. The sooner you realize that, the better off you are.

I fully realize that I may not be stating this well. If so, my apologies. The Tour Divide left...something...that is hard to define when I made my attempt. It's hard to put into words sometimes. I just think that people who argue about it like this simply don't get it, is all. I suppose that's what it boils down to. No offense intended to those doing the arguing.

[Done]

Well, here is an honest question: Why do you think it really matters what anyone on this forum thinks about the TD "rules"? I mean, really. It's Matt's deal. He has a vision of what it is and isn't. Ya'all can postulate all you want about staggered starts, what you think should happen, etc. But why in the world you would really believe you have any real say, in the end?

Plus, to be blunt about it, 'cause I'm in a blunt kind of mood: It's the Tour Divide. As an entity, as a "thing", it's bigger than any of you. You can try to wrap a bunch of crazy rules around it, argue until you are blue in the face, spar over vernacular, what have you. In the end, it doesn't matter.

Why? Because it's the Tour Divide. The rules are simple: You start in Banff. You ride the route. You carry what you carry. You scrounge what you scrounge. You meet incredible people, be they other riders or locals or motorcyclists or cows, along the way who will change your life. If you're lucky, skilled, fit, stubborn as a mule, and can suffer, you *may* make Antelope Wells. You may not. In the end, regardless of if you make it there or scratch, regardless of if you break a record or stumble in 30 days later, it will change your life forever.

And so I say, this yearly argument about sponsors, cut offs, all that? It belittles what the Tour Divide truly is. Have fun arguing, if you want. But it's meaningless. Completely and utterly. Argue about the rules for other races, that are smaller and less life altering, that can be defined by splitting hairs and making rules. The Tour Divide defies all that. The sooner you realize that, the better off you are.

I fully realize that I may not be stating this well. If so, my apologies. The Tour Divide left...something...that is hard to define when I made my attempt. It's hard to put into words sometimes. I just think that people who argue about it like this simply don't get it, is all. I suppose that's what it boils down to.

So it seems that it's OK for you to express your opinions in this forum, but it's not for others to do the same?

Just like the TD, let discussions flow. Ideas matter, and this is about the only place where everyone can share their thoughts, learn from each other, etc. You obviously feel that your perspective is important enough to justify a lengthy rant, so let others share theirs too.