TDR racing pace

[eec]

Hi all, kinda new here, and new to bikepacking and endurance racing events, though not new to (road) racing. Which is kind of my problem. Coming from a road racing background, I'm kind of obsessed with speed.

I'm planning/training for TDR in 2017 and just trying to get an idea of what I should be focusing on to try for a 20-25 day finish.

20 days is roughly 136 mi/day, which means if I average 13 mph I need to ride about 10 hrs/day.
25 days is roughly 110 mi/day, which means if I average 11 mph I need to ride about 10 hrs/day.

I know terrain, weather, mechanicals, stops, etc. all play a major role in how fast and how far and how long you ride per day, but just ballparking, for those of you who finish within that time frame, what kind of speed are you going on the course, on say the easier portions? I tend to always try to go as fast as I can, when I can, and I believe that's going to cause me problems. I just don't know if trying to go 18 mph all the time is going to blow me out real quick because that's the effort I'm used to. When I consciously slow things down to say 12 mph, I feel like it's ridiculously slow. It feels like I could hold that pace forever. But with that said, being a rookie at endurance length racing, I haven't gone for 8-10 hour rides yet (planning on those for this year/next year before the start).

Any insight and advice from you guys/gals would be tremendously appreciated.

[Pivvay]

My moving speed was right on 11mph for the whole way

[sfuller]

I finished in 24:17:02 last year (2015), which made me the last person in under 25 days that didn't deviate from the route, (that was being tracked on Trackleaders), so I averaged about 111 or so per day. My low mileage day was 38, and my high mileage day was 195. Pace obviously depended on road surface, elevation, etc. My fastest day from a speed standpoint was the pavement from Cuba to Grants on Day 22, where my moving average was 15.3. I had a couple of days where my moving average was under 10 MPH.

Things that helped me keep things in perspective during the race were:

• You're not going to win it on the first day, but you can certainly lose it.
• I'm a diesel, and I know I can only go in the red so many times before I have issues, so I tried to keep my HR and power levels in the high Z2 to mid Z3 as much as possible
• Everyone underestimates how tough New Mexico is, so I wanted to leave some in the tank for that last week.

An hour on an unloaded XC rig vs an hour on a bike with all of your gear plus food/water might have you not feeling as worried about 12 MPH feeling ridiculously slow.

[kiwidave]

If you're only riding 10 hours a day then you're not racing the TD!!! Seriously, you'll be looking at 14+ most days in the saddle. I was on the bike at 6 and off after 23 most days with some resupplies, naps, etc using up some of that moving time for 1-2 hours a day. Asleep 0.5 to 1 hour after stopping and alarm 5 hours (or less) later, and on bike in 45 mins to 1 hour.

Sort our you logistics and race craft (how to use your chosen gear efficiently on the route) as that is over 50% the race.

My biggest surprise was how tough the downhills were. I was used to riding in Europe where the trails can be tough going up, but generally have a good descent - the TD's descents were often sandy / washerboarded / loose / rocky etc or a roller coaster of ups and downs and there was minimal "catch-up" time on the average speed on them for me.

Good luck!

[mandivided]

I'm also shooting to do the TD next year with a 20ish day pace, and CTR in < 2 weeks with a 6-7 day pace. From my experience on bikepacking routes (SE mostly: TNGA, and FL stuff), sfuller is spot on about loaded vs unloaded bikes. I rode part of the TNGA with a guy last spring who hadn't really done any loaded riding, just road, and going from 19 to 8mph even though he was putting out the same power messed with his head so much that he pushed way too hard. Psychologically, he wasn't prepared for how slow he was going to go for the effort he was putting out. he was focused way more on speed than sustainable power/effort and was blowing himself up.

I'll also piggyback on Dave's point about descending and say that you want to be comfortable on technical [surfaces] with a loaded bike. Or at least, know where you are uncomfortable, so you can rein in your speed before you're caught by a hazard.

To get back to your original question though, I replay trackleaders archives of races I'm planning on, pick out people who rode my intended pace and study their speeds/distances/rest intervals etc. when i'm studying for a race (this helps to pick up on the areas where I won't make good mileage vs areas where I can expect easy/free miles). Then I strap 10L of water to my bike and go ride hills and trails because regardless of what I plan, I'm only going to do what my legs can get me through. (And core, your core is gonna work way harder on a loaded mountain bike than on a road bike, so throw some planks or something into your routine).

-Donald

[GregMay]

If you're only riding 10 hours a day then you're not racing the TD!!! Seriously, you'll be looking at 14+ most days in the saddle.

I obviously wasn't racing then... 20days 16hrs  FYI - average saddle time <12 hrs per day. With a rather large mechanical that killed about 36hrs or active fast moving time.

Sometimes it pays to just ride faster for less time.

[eec]

going from 19 to 8mph even though he was putting out the same power messed with his head so much that he pushed way too hard.
-Donald

Yeah, this is exactly what I'm afraid of.
FYI, I'm training exclusively on the bike I'm going to use, fully loaded. But with that said, I live in an area that is relatively flat, so I'm not experiencing those long, grueling climbs. I do hill repeats when I can, and try to ride into the wind as much as possible. Also off-road as much as I can. I'm really just trying to get a sense of what it's actually going to be like riding the course, and make a conscious effort to dial back the effort for speed, and focus more on duration.

All of this information is invaluable. You guys rock!

[kiwidave]

I obviously wasn't racing then... 20days 16hrs  FYI - average saddle time <12 hrs per day. With a rather large mechanical that killed about 36hrs or active fast moving time.

Sometimes it pays to just ride faster for less time.

Greg - something seems odd with your maths - Trackleaders says your moving time was 13 days 7 hours, so 319 hours, 319 / 20.66 days = 15.4 hours moving per day. Given you left Wise River at 5:20 and camped after 23:30, that's a pretty solid 18 hour day ... although the service was so slow in Lima that perhaps you were stuck there for 6 hours?

But yes, there are different ways to race and you've gotta go with what is best for you, of course. To date no-one has found "ride hard, rest long" to get a faster time than "ride long, rest short". Jared was getting about 10 hours sleep a night and still did 22.5 days.

[Briansong]

I finished in 24:17:02 last year (2015), which made me the last person in under 25 days that didn't deviate from the route, (that was being tracked on Trackleaders), so I averaged about 111 or so per day. My low mileage day was 38, and my high mileage day was 195. Pace obviously depended on road surface, elevation, etc. My fastest day from a speed standpoint was the pavement from Cuba to Grants on Day 22, where my moving average was 15.3. I had a couple of days where my moving average was under 10 MPH.

Things that helped me keep things in perspective during the race were:

• You're not going to win it on the first day, but you can certainly lose it.
• I'm a diesel, and I know I can only go in the red so many times before I have issues, so I tried to keep my HR and power levels in the high Z2 to mid Z3 as much as possible
• Everyone underestimates how tough New Mexico is, so I wanted to leave some in the tank for that last week.

An hour on an unloaded XC rig vs an hour on a bike with all of your gear plus food/water might have you not feeling as worried about 12 MPH feeling ridiculously slow.

Did/do you race with a power meter? Since I started training with one, I added one to my TD bike. I CANNOT see racing without one. It gives me exactly the data needed to stay at a sustainable pace.

[bakerjw]

I am not a racer nor will I likely every race. That's not to say that I am a slow rider that doesn't like to ride far and fast. I am just not competitive.
I rode out of Banff in mid June with the expectation to at least get to Helena. It was me pushing to see what I could do. The 2nd day I banged up my knee a bit and it hurt enough to make me limp when I walked. Knowing that I likely faced a bit of hike a bike on the 3 passes on the route from Sparwood to Roosville, I took the Fernie alternate to get to Eureka to lay up and see if the knee would recover. It was fine the next morning even after 107 miles.

I have met very few cyclists that have ever been in the saddle more than 7 hours. Seat time is paramount. The saddle that I rode on was fine for 8 hours. Once I got to 10 hours, issues began to surface. Not saddle sores, just a heat rash through the middle that got to the point where I couldn't sit on a saddle at all. It was very demoralizing that I couldn't sit on a bike on day 4. Make sure that you can sit on your saddle 10+ hours. I was on 12, 10 and 11 hours on 3 days straight.

One thing that I really noticed once I started out of Banff. I had a lot of trouble breathing at 6,000'. I live near the Appalachians and we top out usually around 4,000' or so. It's something that you really can't train for that I know of.

The route is a long long distance and I firmly believe in LSD. Log Slow Distance. When I go on group road rides, we ride very hard for 2 to 3 hours. When I do a long long ride, I take it at an easier pace. In the time that I was out there (as short as it was) I can say that I didn't hammer it once. With my goal of 12+ hours a day, I needed to find a pace where my body was content to stay at for the duration.

Another thing was nutrition. I was so overwhelmed by the scenery, that I didn't get hungry. Starve the body and you will suffer for it. I did.

Also pay set priorities and pay attention to them. Are your electronics charged? Bike ok (loose spokes, loose hub, etc...)? Is your clothing clean (chamois clean and dry)? Clean clothing between you and the saddle cannot be emphasized enough.

And as mentioned, loaded versus unloaded weight. On my road bike, I can easily keep a 16mph average on a couple of our mountain crossings. On my loaded TD bike it drops down to the 12mph range. I looked at my speed climbing on a grade and wondered WTF am I thinking. I'm going to suck up there. I am no speed demon on my best days and combine that with the altitude, I still managed 10+ mph out there riding. Plan well and you'll do fine. Just plan well and learn to adjust expectations based on the situation.

[mikepro]

Any insight and advice from you guys/gals would be tremendously appreciated.

My 2-cents:
For starters, assume 10mph will be your moving avg, for TD.  Go with that, and then focus first and foremost on improving moving time versus stopped time in your training and prep.  Plesko's 11mph is insanely good, a result of focused effort, and is supported by tons of prep, training, experience, gear selection, route knowledge, and more.  For comparison, Trackleaders has his overall route average at 7.3mph.

You will be playing daily catch-up during the TD with your goals if you don't trim the fat from your stopped time, and while there are segments of the course where one can do the 13mph to 15mph thing for 10hrs straight, they are few and far between.  Things like packing up quickly after sleeping, ability to resupply quickly at mini-marts, eating while moving, combining tasks into one stop instead of several mini-stops, etc, etc, are way more time-effective than riding fast.  I'm not saying don't ride fast, or don't train to ride fast.  What I am saying is you will get the same place riding 10mph for 2+ more hours during the day, versus trying to ride 13mph the whole day.  Focusing on moving-time-average works for stage racing, but this is continuous-clock racing where I think the "moving while everyone else is stopped" or "moving when you would normally/comfortably be stopped" is way more effective than "being the fastest mover during the day".  That's for 25 down to 20-day finish range.  Sub-20 starts getting into doing both "moving fast and with purpose", and "minimizing stopped time" in a consistent daily way.

I will also add that knowing resupply points and hours of operation is also big.  Regardless of moving time/speed, one can easily tank 12+hrs by pulling into a small hamlet at 8:15p tired, hungry, wet, dirty, etc, when the place shut down at 8 and there's nothing for another 100+ miles up and over 2 more mtn passes.  Or roll in after hours on a Monday night and come to find out on the spot that the only mini-mart/grill/lodge store/shack in town is closed on Tuesdays.

[sfuller]

Did/do you race with a power meter? Since I started training with one, I added one to my TD bike. I CANNOT see racing without one. It gives me exactly the data needed to stay at a sustainable pace.

I trained with a Stages meter for about 1.5 years before the race, and raced with it last year. I definitely did not have my face in my Garmin for the race, but on the climbs an occasional glance down on climbs or at higher altitudes to check my power output was usually all it took to keep me from doing anything too stupid. I will say that after using one for so long, I had a fairly good idea of what my power output was just based on breathing patterns. It took me a couple of days to lock that in being in the mountains vs the great plains.

[sfuller]

I will also add that knowing resupply points and hours of operation is also big.  Regardless of moving time/speed, one can easily tank 12+hrs by pulling into a small hamlet at 8:15p tired, hungry, wet, dirty, etc, when the place shut down at 8 and there's nothing for another 100+ miles up and over 2 more mtn passes.  Or roll in after hours on a Monday night and come to find out on the spot that the only mini-mart/grill/lodge store/shack in town is closed on Tuesdays.

This. i kept extra weight in calories on the bike just in case this happened (saved me more than once). I also kept a list of towns, or restauraints, with resupplies and distances to the next resupply point on my bars. That helped with deciding where I was going to stop, especially when they were close (Silverthorne, Frisco, Breck for instance)

[BobM]

Greg - something seems odd with your maths - Trackleaders says your moving time was 13 days 7 hours, so 319 hours, 319 / 20.66 days = 15.4 hours moving per day. Given you left Wise River at 5:20 and camped after 23:30, that's a pretty solid 18 hour day ... although the service was so slow in Lima that perhaps you were stuck there for 6 hours?

But yes, there are different ways to race and you've gotta go with what is best for you, of course. To date no-one has found "ride hard, rest long" to get a faster time than "ride long, rest short". Jared was getting about 10 hours sleep a night and still did 22.5 days.

Don't know if he still does this, but Jay Petervary has said in the past that his method is to ride at 100% and take good long rest periods, rather than 60% with long days.

[GrizzlyAdam]

I recently toured WY/CO and I had all sorts of numbers in my head going into the ride. Those numbers were thrown out pretty quickly because on the ground, things change. Weather, resupply arrival times, motel access, physical/mental well-being, and all sorts of other things can alter your average speed and mileage goals (as well as your motivation). I had to learn to be flexible, and hope that a shorter day would be evened out by a future longer day.

Of course, in 2017 I hope to put in some nice long days. If I learned anything, I learned that when the going is good, go good. That is, if the weather is nice, you have food/water, and you are feeling good, keep riding until something changes.

[taprider]

Some running events have an age graded/weighted calculation. 
http://fairmodel.econ.yale.edu/aging/nyt1.pdf
http://www.runscore.com/Alan/AgeGrade.html
For example for marathons add approximately 0.6% per year over 35 years old (but less than 55 years old) to the overall winners time (and add exponentially greater time per year for those over 55 years old). You would basically graph a line showing the result of the World Record holder and how he/she would get slower over the years of aging, providing that athlete kept training and preparing equally to when he/she became the record holder.
So by using that formula we as individuals can compare our result to that formula/graphed line and estimate what our time would be if we were younger. For example a 75 year old finishing in twice the time of the World Record holder would be an amazing achievement, but finishing in five times the record time would still be amazing but would not be considered to be fast. You can further modify the formula for being female, under 21 years old, one-legged, on a unicycle etc.
No recognition would be reported for how individuals compare to this formula, it would just be for the entertainment of Spot Stalkers and a personal (privately recognized) carrot for racers (with the exception of if that 75 year old racer is above the formula/line, then it that case (or similar case), it should be noted by the ultra race community)

[NelsonC]

Not sure if this helps the conversation, but in case anyone may find this helpful...
I finished in 23 days 6 hours this year.  Below are the distance and moving average off my etrex for each day.  As folks have noted, road quality, the grade, wind, heat, rain/mud were big factors.

Moving avg, distance
10.5, 110
9.3, 146
10.1, 120
9.4, 112
8.9, 115
8.2, 113
8.3, 91
10.7, 131
9.9, 113
9.3, 112
10.4, 76  (had to stop early due to getting overheated and dehydrated near Pindale)
11.0, 171
8.8, 96  (heat issues again coming out of Wamsutter)
9.7, 96   (4 hrs at Orange Peel bikes in Steamboat for repairs)
8.8, 117
11.1, 132
8.4, 87
9.7, 104
9.3, 106
11.7, 148
9.9 112
7.5, 82 (Gila & CDT, grabbed a motel for a few hours in Silver city and started for the boarder at 2:30am)
12.5, 124

Nelson Carter

[Get Mounted]

To demonstrate the variability between riders. I finished maybe a couple of hours after Nelson (previous poster). Nelson averaged 12 hours in the saddle each day, I averaged 14. That's almost 48 hours of extra peddling I did to complete in a similar time.

Edit * I was riding a 29+ OK so gimme a break *

[Briansong]

I trained with a Stages meter for about 1.5 years before the race, and raced with it last year. I definitely did not have my face in my Garmin for the race, but on the climbs an occasional glance down on climbs or at higher altitudes to check my power output was usually all it took to keep me from doing anything too stupid. I will say that after using one for so long, I had a fairly good idea of what my power output was just based on breathing patterns. It took me a couple of days to lock that in being in the mountains vs the great plains.

I would agree with that. When I'm in the middle of an interval, I know when I drop off and I know when I'm making the prescribed power output. I had a SRM put on my TD bike and will likely watch it pretty close when I specifically need to throttle my output on long efforts.

[Pivvay]

Power was great for training. Awesome for day 1-3. After that if you're racing hard and not sleeping it's unnecessary. I still glanced at it but never needed it to pace. Your top end is gone anyway.