TEAM self-supported racing! Whattaya think?

[JeffOYB]

I personally think that the "buddy system" (and more) is a wonderful idea to explore.

Any threads about it here lately or FAQs?

What about a TEAM Divide?

Pros, cons?

I suppose the con is EROSION. This might be solved by having teams be NoBo, to end up in the muddy areas after they've had more time to dry.

The pros, that I can see, are that it would be faster, funner, lighter, and far SAFER.

Traveling long and hard and in the wee hours and in the wilderness seems like it's only a matter of time for more tragedy. Maybe that's just life. Maybe a buddy could likely and easily spell the total difference in many big risk situations. If only to have someone likely more able to fetch help. Even riding on roads seems far safer with multiple riders.

I'm not thinking bunched-field racing but more along the lines of team time trials.

The details? The rules? The limits? Ha, that's for bigger brains than mine. I'd say to keep it all still Self-Supported. Use what ya bring. No vehicles or outsiders. Score the time based on the last rider, maybe. Do all team-members have to finish? Beats me! Use an average? Who knows! It's grist for the mill, food for thought.

What about a TEAM self-supported RAAM? I still like Chris Kostman's Trans-Am idea. He canceled it due to safety. What if it used the Buddy System? I think that brings in HEAPS more common sense and safety. A bigger on-road presence, too. Less likely that two will fall prey to bad judgment, overdoing it, delirium, whatever.

How's the offroad RAAM route-finding going? That's another option for greater beauty and safety. But I'd still like to see a TEAM option available.

In what way can self-sup racing offer the best experience and make the biggest impact in the USA? I already tend to think of it as better than TdF-type caravan/commissaire racing. I have a hunch there's a big impact, quintessentially American event here. Of course we also want it to be low impact. I like the accessibility and sustainability of self-sup action. It seems like it can apply to a TEAM mode.

Heck...it could maybe even work with STAGES. How 'bout that kettle of fish? : )

[joeydurango]

I like riding with people.  But I also really like riding - and racing - alone.  That's part of the draw for me.

[JeffOYB]

I like riding with people.  But I also really like riding - and racing - alone.  That's part of the draw for me.

Whatever works for whoever goes out there! : )

I meant to also say that this new Team mode could just be set up via a blog and SPOTS. It would be just as voluntary and unofficial as anything else. Just a format that people could go for if they liked. And where their resulting times could be posted.

But, as I say, the pro's, con's and rules/parameters are beyond me. I'm just wondering what people think. It would reflect in no way on solo TD. It would just be for those who wanted it.

As I say, I could see it working better for some folks and, offhand, seems definitely safer. I see it as being equally hard in its own way. How to get along with others while going hard for weeks? Maybe it would be best to ride solo or keep "sociability gaps" on days when it's conducive for that -- then cooperate for camping/feeding/repairs and for headwinds or pavement or spells where misery might prefer company. Who knows!

[joeydurango]

Oh sure - could work for plenty of folks!  Not ragging on it.  Just my two personal cents.  Good idea to explore though.

[gdillon]

I saw a team format for the Dixie and instantly liked it. Clock stops when all team members cross the finish line. I think anyone could ITT any current race under this category and have great time doing it. There are definitely some down sides to team format, like any of the.million things that can go wrong in an effort.

[JF-mtnbiker]

I think the Divide is unique and should stay that way. If someone wants to have a self supported race that mirrors everything else out there, they should find a route and start one.

[febikes]

The Pisgah Double Dare is not quite an ultra but it is epic and team oriented.
http://pisgahproductions.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&Itemid=127

[JeffOYB]

I think the Divide is unique and should stay that way. If someone wants to have a self supported race that mirrors everything else out there, they should find a route and start one.

Route? It's a national hiking/biking route, isn't it? It's by no means a "race property" route. So that wouldn't be the snag. So, for sure the Divide is unique and will stay that way. The TdF is unique. But other events run on French roads from time to time. Uniqueness isn't kept by prevention of other things.

[DaveH]

I've had that category in the Dixie, Trans Utah, and Paunsaugunt events for quite some time.  Racing Trans Rockies duo was sooo much fun it seemed like a hole in the self-supported genre.  In reality, it doesn't see much (any?) use.  I haven't pushed it - it just part of the rules: http://2-epic.com/events/rules.html

Team events are slower than solo!  No two people are always in sync - everyone has lows, highs, random bonks, mechanicals etc.  The team format forces everyone on the team to ride at the pace of the slowest person (and that role very well could move around among members).  It is a different experience for sure - can be awesome.  Especially if your GF doesn't want to sleep in the woods alone

As far as different classes in events, all one really needs to do is show up and own it.  These things are all free and on public land, right?  There was no tandem class in TD before the Petervary's showed up and killed it, for example.

[JeffOYB]

Neat thoughts, thanks. Yeah, it becomes like scrambles golf except the worst ball is scored. Kinda funny! Well, it's safer, but yeah synching with someone for a big duration would likely be tricky! Interesting!

[Cosmo K]

I don't know...the terms Team and Self Supported on the divide just don't sit well with me and wouldn't be something I'd be interested in.  It's odd that I instantly had a negative reaction to it...

[tanman1337]

I think it is a very cool concept and would be lots of fun, however, I do agree that it would be much slower than solo just for the mere fact that there would be twice as many reasons to get off the bike (i.e. mechanicals, tired, etc.) I think it would probably be a lot more fun....but probably a lot less rewarding at the end.

[dream4est]

I think the idea is based on one concept i hate about "teaming up" which is based in fear of being alone. IMO prearranged teams in the ultra races almost always fail for many reasons. Solo means self-sufficient. It also means one has the cajones to hit the start line prepared to ride alone.

Folks who toe the line intending to ride with someone or looking to team up along the way almost always have issues with being alone in the wilderness IMO. They are the ones who seem to have issues with safety, etc. Look at this years CTR. The one rider who had a total meltdown was "teaming up" according to his race reports yet no one who rode with him helped him with his issues until it was too late and the Spot 911 button was hit. So IMO riding with or near others does nothing to improve safety and may actually reduce safety by giving people a false sense of security. This is in no way a slam- I for one understand what that rider possibly went through as I had my own fadeout in AZT750 on the Mogollon Rim, which is not a good place to lose your mind.

There is also the effect teams have on solo riders around them. I notice that teams that ride at my pace are always faster riders than me who feed off each other to stay in the event. IMO they usually quit and when they finish it is only due to the team, neither rider would finish solo. It sucks to ride alone near these group efforts. And in TD teams mean drafting, which pisses off nearby riders even more than teams on singletrack.

And I am not even really touching on what Jay P. did in his blogs- FAST racers who team up. I am too slow to have much of an opinion on that but Chris N. was moving in this years CTR and staying with the "pack" may have been his downfall for all we know. The leaders at TD this year used teamwork to waste the field of very strong riders. Now we all know teaming up after the race starts is no rule violation- but it seems to go against the whole concept of the event(s).

If it was up to me prearranged teams would be banned in CTR and AZT. One needs to be a tough self-sufficient SOB who can handle adversity.

[JeffOYB]

Well, being prepared doesn't always matter. Emergencies can still happen. Which is why the buddy-system has some fans. Jeff of Carousel seemed serious about the benefits when he and I talked -- and he seems like a good source.

Yeah, teams have issues -- you raise many good points -- but teams are still interesting. Maybe run em totally separately. It's all a test. I suppose it's up to the players and organizers in the end.

[dream4est]

Well, being prepared doesn't always matter. Emergencies can still happen.

Yes- but the more prepared rider handles the emergencies better. Like Roland S.

IMO the rider who shows up intending to ride as a team almost always has limited backcountry experience alone. I have personal experience with these teams in almost each race I have participated in and it is almost always been a negative vibe to the solo racer. Imagine how pissed you would be if two fast people cheated, somehow ended up behind you after blowing your doors off, then dogged you for 48 hours plus as you tried to beat them to the finish? Well that happened to me in 2012 AZT 300, and I nearly had heat stroke just trying to beat those damn cheaters who fed off each other, drafted, shared gear etc. I had to ride at 230am two nights in a row and push through fierce heat to beat them by 8 min.

I would welcome the team concept but not in the actual race they should ITT the course.

[JeffOYB]

If they were a real team in an event that allowed it then it wouldn't be cheating. It sounds like it's vexing but it seems like there are many events out there that have both team and solo divisions and hopefully everybody gets along well enough.

A well-prepared person who breaks a bad bone, starts spouting blood, or gets knocked out, or animal attack, or bad sick miles from nowhere could possibly use the benefit of a buddy. ...But I'm happy to let the organizers or whoever shows up for such events decide.

[Done]

Personally, I'm a fan of solo self-supported racing. There's a lot of satisfaction that comes with being self-reliant. Sorting out the mental and physical challenges alone is a big part of the attraction for me. I agree with a lot of what Mark (dream4est) says.

But I have a hard time condemning those who like the support of a riding partner--whether planned or unplanned. Especially as the starting groups get larger, it's going to be harder to truly ride alone without doing an ITT.

Perhaps the solution is to designate the two different styles, as Dave Harris does with his races. As long as people are open and honest about what they are doing, then I don't have too much of a problem. Things only get sticky when apples are compared to oranges.

[dream4est]

If they were a real team in an event that allowed it then it wouldn't be cheating.

Jeff what I mean by cheating is that teams  are CHEATING. They are not following the rules. Like rules against drafting, gear sharing, etc. Let me give you some examples of the team cheating i saw in 2012:

Drafting- saw a prearranged team draft on a detour in CTR
Gear sharing- saw prearranged and arranged teams sharing sleep gear in AZT and CTR. The arranged team up in CTR was to be able to push through rain and then share a tarp IMO.
Car ride/sag support in AZT- Pretty sure a friend as sag is cheating. Getting in that friends car? Moving forward on the course in said car? You be the judge.

So what happens in my experience is that prearranged teams ride way slower than each riders solo potential. They then get discouraged about the effort and break rules left and right to stay in the game/keep up some kind of pace. If a prearranged team of faster riders couldnt beat me in both 2012 races, thats pretty weaksauce as my times were slow. Resorting to cheating and still cant beat a slow guy? Despicable IMO. Well it happened both times and one team finished with car ride asterix and one quit. The arranged team in CTR that shared a tarp? Well both riders quit as well I think (I know for sure at least one them quit).

I am only pointing this out because once again someone is looking to CHANGE races rules/concepts yet again. Like I have said before, if it aint broke quit trying to fix it. If someone wants to promote a team race, then by all means go for it. But it should be its own event at a separate time than other events and maybe its own unique course.

[Done]

If someone wants to promote a team race, then by all means go for it. But it should be its own event at a separate time than other events and maybe its own unique course.

Yeah, I agree with this--for the most part. Same course is OK with me, but a different start time would make it easier to separate the two styles. With so many people not adhering to the spirit of "self-support," it would be nice if those of us who embrace the original ethos of ultra-racing weren't squeezed out by teams, aid stations, etc.

[JeffOYB]

Aid stations make me cringe. And sag wagons. Overhead...

But I guess there's a place for everything.