The Spirit of the Tour Divide

[ScottM]

I don't see where people are reading the implication of relegation for finishing outside of a 'competitive time', either in this thread or in the rules.  That's never been the case and no one is suggesting it here.

A competitive time is just a (pretty meaningless) guideline, and it is arbitrary.  Back in the GDR/TD days the GDR attempted to enforce cutoffs and relegation of slower riders, if you will.  It was hugely unpopular.  TD doesn't even have the guts to publish results with clear rules violations relegated, there's no way they are going to publish relegations for "slow" times.

ML does try to dissuade people from entering who are approaching it more as a tour than a race, but we've never changed classifications on TL for slower riders, or stopped tracking them.

I do agree with Toby that not publishing results and not enforcing big rules violations might be leading to a degradation of standards.  It is not, however, the case that Matthew is not very passionate about the divide and the race.  He's very engaged in it, it's just not in ways that most people can see, and he doesn't post publicly very often.  He's always on top of the route changes, trying to improve it, listening to rider feedback, spending countless hours helping people get to the start line, etc.  There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes.

[dream4est]

I like the way Matt is running the race. I dont like the way that others have attempted to latch on to it. We dont need spreadsheets and non-official race results published. Really we dont. It just leads to this type of bizarre micro-management and improper interpretations of rules. Why are we even talking about 1.5x the record when 20% of starters cant even come close to following the basic premise of the rules?

Scott and Stefan run the other 2 big races just fine. No need for spreadsheets and non-official results there. Why here? The results show on trackleaders that is not enough? Too many hands in the cookie jar.

[Done]

Using this type of thinking, my 11 day and change AZT750 result sucks too? Its over 1.55X the record. How many people could actually be competitive in the 750 then? I think my time is like 13th fastest in race history.

Or CTR. 6day and change sucks now? Even though it nearly got the podium this year? Huh?

I don't think that ANY serious effort to finish "sucks." But my relatively slow CTR finishes aren't objectively as impressive as those of the much faster winners. I'm OK with that reality.

If I were an organizer, I wouldn't choose to differentiate between "competitive" and "non-competitive" finishes. But ML has decided to make that distinction, so that's how the TD is raced. Whether it's a category or not, there's no doubt that it has the effect of separating those who finish before the 1.5x time and those who do not.

We don't need spreadsheets and non-official race results published. Really we dont. It just leads to this type of bizarre micro-management and improper interpretations of rules.

Yeah, I agree. If ML doesn't post the results, then nobody else should. I don't even like the Trackleader "results," since they don't distinguish between outright cheaters and honest finishes. That said, I wish that ML would post results!

[dream4est]

I don't think that ANY serious effort to finish "sucks." But my relatively slow CTR finishes aren't objectively as impressive as those of the much faster winners. I'm OK with that reality.

Really Toby I have to disagree. I think that your last finish was impressive. 2012 CTR beat me easily right? Yes if you compare yourself to the 3 pros on the podium maybe you are right. But in any other MTB racing format you would have killed the "sport" guys and maybe done well in "expert" or whatever. I have never been close to the pros in regular racing. I am a lot closer in this one class style. No sandbaggers. I like it this way.

[Done]

Really Toby I have to disagree. I think that your last finish was impressive. 2012 CTR beat me easily right? Yes if you compare yourself to the 3 pros on the podium maybe you are right. But in any other MTB racing format you would have killed the "sport" guys and maybe done well in "expert" or whatever. I have never been close to the pros in regular racing. I am a lot closer in this one class style. No sandbaggers. I like it this way.

I PERSONALLY thought that both of my finishes were damn impressive! First time I ever raced my bike was for the CTR--and I managed to not arrive in Durango in last place.  In fact, in both races I've beaten a bunch of superior riders who quit!

But OBJECTIVELY, I was one of the slow guys who made almost everyone look fast.

No, I don't suck. Nobody who finishes any of these races in good style sucks. But the reality is that, compared to the fast guys, my finishes just aren't that impressive.

You upped the ante for the slow guys though Mark. By finishing all three races, you put yourself in an entirely different league. Individually, your times weren't objectively that impressive, but collectively it was off-the-charts amazing!

[dream4est]

This is not about me or you or triple crowns Toby. Its about the racer thinking of lining up for TD 15 or 16. They deserve better.

This is making the sport look bad. And it so much more than 1.5x and cheating and spreadsheets.

If you or Jeff or I or others never say anything nothing would ever change.

[Jilleo]

When I first decided to race the Divide in 2009, I intended to line up with the Great Divide Race, and one of the reasons for that decision was its explicitly stated 24-day cutoff. At the time, the (border-to-border) women's record was just under 22 days. Not much wiggle room there. But it seemed like a great challenge. I can be weak-minded like any slower endurance enthusiast, and admit I value pre-established, nonnegotiable parameters to light a fire under my ass.

There were a lot of varied reasons why I showed up at the Tour Divide instead, and I'm glad I did. I was still bummed to watch the GDR dissolve, in an inevitability that started because of infighting about rules. As Scott mentioned, cut-offs were an unpopular notion. I supported them. My finish time in the TD ended up being north of 24 days. Could I have squeaked by in under 24 if I believed I had to? It's likely. I believe the impetus is rewarding, in that it forces me to push seemingly immovable limits.

This isn't to diminish anyone's efforts, or question behind-the-scenes hard work and decisions. And I wouldn't begin to venture at a "fair" cut-off for the Tour Divide. As you pointed out, there are often extenuating circumstances that prevent finishing within an arbitrary time. I have been pulled from races before because I missed a cut-off. It sucks, a lot. Last year, I was volunteering at the Western States 100, and watched a guy run across the finish with 30:01:xx on the clock. The cut-off is 30 hours. He didn't get a buckle. He ran every step of 100 miles, and he knew he did it, but that still has to hurt, just a little.

I also followed the 2013 Iditarod Invitational, when Shawn McTaggert attempt to establish a women's foot record to Nome. At the time, the record was 42 days, but the race has a cut-off of 31 days. She was 80 miles out with just over 24 hours before the limit, and no one thought she could do it. But she did arrive in Nome on time, with a few hours to spare. She was accused of cheating, of taking a snowmobile ride. As far as I know there was never any concrete proof for this, only the belief that it was "impossible" to cover 80 miles of the Iditarod Trail on foot in one day during the thousand-mile race. So in 2014, she ran that section in ~27 hours again, just to prove she could. I'll never know all the facts, but I believe she did it. I have a lot of respect for her.

I support race cut-offs, in general. But I'm not about to go imposing standards on others. I just wanted to offer that perspective.

[Done]

This is not about me or you or triple crowns Toby. Its about the racer thinking of lining up for TD 15 or 16. They deserve better.

This is making the sport look bad. And it so much more than 1.5x and cheating and spreadsheets.

If you or Jeff or I or others never say anything nothing would ever change.

No, it's not about us. But I think that we are using our personal experiences and perspectives to illustrate our positions, rather than just speaking in abstractions.

I couldn't agree more with your sentiment that it's "so much more than 1.5x and cheating and spreadsheets." I hope that healthy exchanges like this will ultimately lead to improvements and fewer conflicts in the future.

[JeffM-VT]

I'm just catching on the posts from the last 24 hours and thought I should clarify a few things about my earlier posts and my opinions.

First - it should be noted that when I responding to Chris (the e-mail that I included in my first post yesterday) it was after reading a draft of the afterword that included the following wording - "With that in mind, it is proposed future editions of the Cordillera will include the list of everyone who includes their name in the Google Docs spreadsheet—unless riders request not to be included. If riders are found to have deviated from the rules, or finish outside of the 25/29.5 day period, their finish time will still be recorded but with the term ‘Relegated’. That will both recognize that they succeeded in riding the Tour Divide, but also recognize those who were able to achieve the impossible within the rules."

So there has been discussion about relegating folks that don't finish within the "competitive time" constraints.  And I believe (if I'm remembering correctly) that there was discussion of actually moving folks to a 2nd tracker if they were following behind a "competitive" pace.  Or changing the color of dots.  I believe these discussions were in the 2013 TD forum but I didn't go looking for them to re-read (so hopefully my memories are not too far off).  I just remember at the time feeling dismayed by the suggestions being made and remember there being some strongly worded posts.   So it is nice to hear that there are no plans for such things...

To Chris's credit - he did listen to the feedback and did modify this wording (removing the idea of relegation for those not posting competitive times).  However - I was under the belief that Chris was going to scrap the Afterword which I thought was the prudent thing to do.  I was very surprised when I saw it published and noticed that it still contained discussion of the "competitive time" rule, discussion of 2 distinct groups of riders, etc.  I really don't think those topics have anything to do with the "Spirit of the Tour Divide".

I think these discussions are healthy but I too wish that Matthew (or some appropriate person or group) could handle updates to them as deemed appropriate.  I, for example, would like to propose that the "competitive time" rule be stricken from the web site and never be discussed again.

I don't see a big problem with having a cut-off time though (despite what I said in my original post about all riders being equal, about it should be okay to finish in 35 days, etc. - if it is felt that it will help limit the field to those wanting to race).  For most events it makes sense for practical purposes - you can't have timers waiting at the finish line for an unreasonable amount of time, you can't close roads for days on end, etc.  If I remember correctly, Ironmen triathlons have a 17 hour cut-off and the Boston Marathon has a 5 hour cut-off (both more than twice as long as the expected winning time).  Tour Divide doesn't have the same practical constraints - as I assume that the tracker can be kept up indefinitely - but having a reasonable cut-off time might help keep those not racing from the start line.  Maybe a 30 day cut-off would be reasonable?  Though I would hate to be the one to bring up a proposed cut-off time to the masses as I'm sure there would be some disagreement...

[mtnbound]

I don't know if there is as much cheating or rule bending in the CTR or AZT (and similar races) as there is in the TD but it seems like it is an issue that is raised more often in the TD.  Same for the rules discussions/debates.  Of course, I consider the TD to be a somewhat different beast than the CTR or AZT (more varied terrain, different skillset, muuuch longer (mile-wise and time-wise), more international, larger number of participants, more well known, etc.) and I don't know if or how that plays into these issues.  

Having a clear person in charge seems to substantially reduce conflict and the number of people that violate the rules.  The person in charge may (unfortunately) be criticized and second guessed but it leads to less of these heated discussions about rules and also seems to reduce the number of people that break the rules (does knowing that there is no one in charge lead to more people that don't follow the rules? I will leave that issue up to a sociologist or psychologist!).  

I think a lot of people have stated this before but it does seem that the TD needs someone/group in charge, similar to the CTR/AZT.  ML has done and continues to do a tremendous amount for the TD (and other bike-packing events) and should be honored for his commitment, dedication and his leadership (same goes for Scott, Stefan and others).  I can certainly understand if he does not want to be the one in charge (time commitment, getting criticized, etc.) so it may be time to see if anyone else would be willing to take charge.

[fastmtnbiker33w]

One of the main reasons I did Tour Divide is so I could comment on these forums. (sic) 

As someone who was/is very meh about the route, I'm not meh about the "event".  I think it's something everyone should experience.  By "racing", you agree to do the entire route.  By signing up to race, you commit to doing the entire route.  Doing it under your own power is another fine rule to follow.  All the other stuff is meh. 

I don't see different types of racers.  I see different types of observers.  There are still a large number of cyclists in this world who know nothing about TD.  Most who do know about it only know what they saw on RtD.  Most don't know of any rules.  Most don't care.  Your friends and family don't care about any rules. They are just either impressed or depressed with your accomplishment. 

It's your race.  Do it the way you want to do it.  If you want to get in the car with some weirdo to go hang out at their cabin, go for it.  If you want to kill your own food and harvest grains along the route, go for it.  Make what you want to make out of it. 

If you want your name on a website as a finisher of the route, add your name and time. Most will not care how you did it.  Those who do will find out how you did it.  If you lie to them, then that's on you.  Just get out there and ride it so you can say you did it and you'll be able to tell Matt Lee how boring the route is. 

Then do the Colorado Trail if you haven't done that yet.  It's a real mountain bike route. 

Ride your bike.

[Done]

All the other stuff is meh.

Whatever.

Make what you want to make out of it. 

Meh.

[fastmtnbiker33w]

Seriously Toby.  Nitpicking rules isn't going to grow this sport.  It's pretty obvious that you care a lot about rules or some sort of code.  It's almost like a religion for you.  Cycling itself is like a religion for me.  I dabble in all types...road, DH, trials, social rides, mtb on road (gonna have to ride a shitload of singletrack on a cross bike or road bike or something to make up for all the mtb on road during divide), and bikepacking.  I love getting people into this sport.  What they choose to do with it?  I don't care.  As long as they are pedaling I don't care. 

You "rules" guys are nice guys.  Instead of nitpicking and trying to "publish" rules, keep doing what you do out there and set the example that you would like your followers to follow.  Keep publishing your compilations (even with your opinions like you've posted here).  Keep making your movies and your youtube videos.  But be warned.  By nitpicking, you make yourself look like clowns and when I tell my friends about this stuff, they either glaze over or laugh. 

Go out and ride your bike.  Lend people gear.  Take them with you.  Have fun. 

[Done]

...you make yourself look like clowns...

[sthig]

So here's a question.

What's the solution to this three pages of bickering back and forth?

[HughieP]

So here's a question.

What's the solution to this three pages of bickering back and forth?

It kind of validates Chris's decision not to publish results in the mighty fine Cordillera. What people achieved and experienced out there is bigger than a couple of lines in a post race journal. Go out ride your bike, enjoy, experience and be proud of what you did.

Hughie 2013 - 21 days, 12 hours and 38 minutes. That's what I did, pretty happy with that. I wish I had gone faster and am happily perfecting my craft to facilitate that. That is all my stuff, I own that. I don't think going faster or slower detracts from my or anyone else's achievement in 2013.  I am more proud of having competed alongside the people that I did and finish something a bit hard core but really I know it was just riding a bicycle and I was very, very lucky to have had the opportunity. I guess the alternative is showing up to work every day until the Treasurer of this country says I am rich enough to be able to retire and not be a burden on the mining companies.

[ScottM]

I don't know that there is a solution.

There will always be people that bend and break the rules.  There will always be people that show up to bikepacking races with more of a touring mentality.  Some will be racing their brains out and maybe look like they are touring to others watching on trackleaders.

There will always be people that think the rules are too strict.  There will be those that get offended when other people break them and try to claim official finishes.

And the debate will continue.  I don't think we can hope for an end-all solution to it.  In the big picture, people are getting out, pushing themselves and having an amazing adventure.  That's enough for me to say this whole endeavor of bikepack racing is worth it and is a success.  But I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing it and trying to improve it such that there is less negativity all around.  I would love to see less.

[Marshal]

Just catching up on this thread ----and a page full of comments

Here I see the same ol same ol arguments that have been kicking around literally from day 1.  Basically re-proving my earlier point, that while it would be nice if our little community could find rule-set consensus (and actually have everyone adhere to said rule set) it’s never going to happen.

It’s not correct to say that these arguments only crop up regarding the TDR and not the AZT, CTR or other like events, but I would agree that ML’s hands off approach to posting finish results contributes to the post-race forum bickering.  But in till he says otherwise it’s his event to organize as he sees fit!  
Side note: If you want ML’s latest ‘posted’ thinking on the TDR just re-read the 2014 race thread—he commented more there than he has for years.

To those who call for different, new, more or better TDR organization I would say:
1st be careful what you wish for, different or new is not automatically better……
2nd it’s so easy/common to criticize and make suggestions but hard/rare to step up and actually ‘do’

With regards to cutoff times and maximum finish times.  
While a cutoff time might provide additional individual motivation to some, in the end cut offs only exist for the event organizers benefit.  If ML sees some benefit to him then I am sure he will institute some.  
Same with mandatory max finish times.  ML can speak for himself but it’s my impression that he has thoughtfully laid out a rule set, and given written observations, that strongly encourages participants to come fully prepared to “race” the TDR to the best of their ability.  IE: He wants and encourages a strong competitive field.  
On the other hand I believe he recognizes and accepts that not every TDR participant needs to justify their involvement by finish time alone.  IE: He wants the fast, dedicated (semi-crazy?) ones to show up and have at it, but he seems to have deliberately left room for everyone else.  

Rules per say:
I believe in following, to the letter, the specific written rules of the unorganized events I participate in, even the rules I think may be inconsistent or silly.  But experience has taught me no amount of forum commenting, persuasive argument or whining will change the fact that some fellow participants will always feel or do differently.

So on a personal level, really by necessity, my perspective has evolved and mellowed a bit from a strict rules guy to one who is mostly concerned only with what I do or don’t do.

From where I stand today, just for me, it’s the whole spectrum of TDR racers, fast to slow, serious to casual, lucky to doomed and yes even the ones somewhat indifferent to the rules that constitute the real spirit of the TDR.

And I hope for the chance to re-test all my thinking about it come 2015.......

[cjdunn]

As someone who has never done the TDR (so somewhat objective) but has considered it I can say that all the bickering about rules just makes me want to do it less.  It is beginning to sound like USAC road racing.  The LAST thing I'd want to see happen to bikepack racing is a sanctioning body etc.  The majority of racers aren't in it for a win or a record.  Does it really matter to you if you finish 12th or 13th or 31st?  Who cares what other people are doing?  You should be in this for yourself.  I always tell my kids not to let other people define them or their personal worth.  I say, do it in the best style you can and be honest about it.  If other people don't do it in the same style or aren't so honest it shouldn't take anything away from what you did.

I'd want to be out there having an amazing experience as part of something bigger than me.  Worrying about what other people might be doing would ruin the experience.  I kind of agree with Marshal and fastmtnbiker33w.

I don't see different types of racers.  I see different types of observers.  There are still a large number of cyclists in this world who know nothing about TD.  Most who do know about it only know what they saw on RtD.  Most don't know of any rules.  Most don't care.  Your friends and family don't care about any rules. They are just either impressed or depressed with your accomplishment. 

It's your race.  Do it the way you want to do it.  If you want to get in the car with some weirdo to go hang out at their cabin, go for it.  If you want to kill your own food and harvest grains along the route, go for it.  Make what you want to make out of it. 

If you want your name on a website as a finisher of the route, add your name and time. Most will not care how you did it.  Those who do will find out how you did it.  If you lie to them, then that's on you. 

[JRA]

I've never ridden the TD, so my opinions are strictly that of an outsider.  However I have competed in many endurance events throughout my life.  And as a TD spectator for several years, I have considered lining up for the Grand Depart at some point in the future.  

I have the utmost respect for anyone who completes this challenge, even those who choose to just tour it.  But there are really only a small handful of riders who are truly "competitive".  "Competitive", in my mind, are those few who have a genuine chance at podium finish.  That said, I don't see any point in the forced segregation of finishers for the sake of bragging rights.  My respect for the finishers would not be impacted by an arbitrary cut-off or different colored dots on a screen.

And as far as cheating.....unfortunately cheating is a reality in virtually all sporting endeavors.  With a 2700+ mile course and no course marshals and governing body, a small percentage of the competitors will likely see fit to short-cut the rules of the TD.  And those bumping up against some arbitrary deadline might even be more inclined to cheat.  And who is going to stop them?  As far as I'm concerned, that's between them and their own conscience, (or lack thereof).  

To me, one of the great things about the TD is that it's not governed or sanctioned.  It's not encumbered by all the regulatory crap that essentially ruins every other form of competitive cycling.  The TD doesn't even officially exist, yet it miraculously happens every year - and I think that's pretty cool.  And at the end of the day, it's the individual TD riders themselves who know if they gave it all they had, and if they did it within the confines of original guidelines.  No additional rules, lists or colored dots is going to change that.

Lastly, congrats to any and all TD finishers who did it with honor and ethics.