The Spirit of the Tour Divide

[Snowbd2u]

As a 2014 finisher, outside the debated cut off time, I'm completely fine with it. I know exactly what I finished and how I finished. I literally completed 100% of the main route, down to the inch on my trusty single speedI remember being in silver city, obviously almost done, looking at the route a block away and having to backtrack three blocks to do the whole route. To me that's what I needed to do for me. If that makes sense.

Debating the cut off time and rule violations will probably be an ongoing discussion for years to come. But it's a free race, a race in which you push yourself, a race that will push you, and a race that is an adventure. For me I enjoyed every minute, didn't fret about people breaking the rules. To me, I knew what I did and that's all the counts. It's not about rules really, it's about what you get out of it. I rode it all and was happy with what I did, and followed the rules. So don't worry about the things that you have no control over and get out on the bike and enjoy it!
Just a side note about ML.... I and other racers received personal texts and phone calls regarding route issues from him. He is Aces in my book!

[Nathan Jones]

I would think we could agree on something not too far from this, but I've been known to be painfully idealistic.  

[Done]

Seems like many recent posters don't care if others in the race cheat, since they are out there for own personal reasons. Which seems to imply that they don't care how they place compared to others, since cheaters make objective and fair comparisons impossible.

Which begs the question: Why even enter a RACE if nothing other than your personal experience matters--and relative times, competition, and placement aren't important? Why not just go ride the route on some random day, alone or with friends?

[JRA]

Seems like many recent posters don't care if others in the race cheat, since they are out there for own personal reasons. Which seems to imply that they don't care how they place compared to others, since cheaters make objective and fair comparisons impossible.

Which begs the question: Why even enter a RACE if nothing other than your personal experience matters--and relative times, competition, and placement aren't important? Why not just go ride the route on some random day, alone or with friends?

I hope that's not what you took away from my comments.  If so, I failed to express myself effectively.  I definitely care about those who cheat, be it in the TD or anywhere else in life for that matter.  I just don't see how to get around it, short of having TD police on every bend in the road and in every town on the route.

One answer to your question:  Most of us are social animals who enjoy shared experiences.  So it's natural that we would line up together to attempt such a big endeavor.  And unlike many other endurance events, there is no qualifying for the TD.  So anyone with the time off and the gumption can show up and give it a whirl.  And I think that's one of the cool things about the TD, obviously some may disagree with that.  

[Done]

As the "Do Whatever" approach to ultra-racing gains more traction, people will inevitably cut more corners to suit their whims. It's a cultural shift. And you're right, JRA, once it gets fully ingrained there's not much short of rigorous enforcement that can stop it. Not something that most of us want.

Which is why I invest so much time posting about rules issues. If enough people push back against the "Do Whatever" crowd, then the ethics of racing will stay strong and healthy. But if we sit back and accept the idea that anything goes, then ultra-racing will become a watered-down sport overtaken by weenies, cheats, and braggarts.

We'll never stop all of them, of course. But resistance is not futile. A guy cheated during my first CTR, and the response was swift and effective. He's never been back. The tribe won--because we took a stand rather than just accept it.

When small men attempt great enterprises, they always end by reducing them to the level of their mediocrity.
--Napoleon Bonaparte

[Marshal]

Seems like many recent posters don't care if others in the race cheat, since they are out there for own personal reasons. Which seems to imply that they don't care how they place compared to others, since cheaters make objective and fair comparisons impossible.

Which begs the question: Why even enter a RACE if nothing other than your personal experience matters--and relative times, competition, and placement aren't important? Why not just go ride the route on some random day, alone or with friends?

Toby, I try to avoid bumping up against the black and white world you seem to live in because it’s sort of like tossing gas on your personal fire--- but this particular post of yours just rubs me the wrong way, so here is a tiny bit of free gas……..

Perhaps some racers who follow the rules don’t care if others cheat but I sincerely doubt it. That doesn’t apply to me, and I certainly didn’t get from my readings of the various posts where it applies to others.  Not caring about a rule breaker is way different from recognizing reality for what it is and working to minimize the impact it can have on one’s personal experience after toeing the line.

But what really prompted me to respond was your pure ‘speculation’ about what motivates individual racers and then suggesting if their motivation doesn’t somehow match your passion about rule adherence they go away.  You do not know what motivates others to race!  And if someone doesn’t want to obsess about rules it’s not your call to suggest they go away!

Toby you certainly have the right to continue your endless pursuit of the ‘rules’ subject (and actually I agree with many/most of your posts/views on rules).  But frankly I don’t think your obsession with ‘rules’ has been healthy for the self-supported community.  Nor in my opinion has it contributed to any lasting positive outcomes.
 
I wish there was some way you could take your passion for the subject and move it into an area where it had positive/real impact. (Humm, maybe you and ML really should collaborate on TDR rule enforcement, the threat alone of you arbitrating behind the scenes would have all the cheaters running for cover)

[Done]

Perhaps some racers who follow the rules don’t care if others cheat but I sincerely doubt it. That doesn’t apply to me, and I certainly didn’t get from my readings of the various posts where it applies to others.  Not caring about a rule breaker is way different from recognizing reality for what it is and working to minimize the impact it can have on one’s personal experience after toeing the line.

Marshal,I think that you utterly misinterpreted the intentions of my question. First of all, it is actually a question--not a statement. I sincerely wonder why people race when they don't care about the comparisons that are inherently part of a race format. It was not a statement or a judgment, as you seem to imply. I was actually hoping that someone who races that way would share their thoughts.

Where did I get the idea that some people don't care what other racers do? Read this thread. Several people have stated as much.

But what really prompted me to respond was your pure ‘speculation’ about what motivates individual racers and then suggesting if their motivation doesn’t somehow match your passion about rule adherence they go away.  You do not know what motivates others to race!  And if someone doesn’t want to obsess about rules it’s not your call to suggest they go away!

Where have I EVER said that people who don't agree with me should "go away"? I haven't said it, because I don't believe it. I do think that people who willfully cheat during a race shouldn't race--which I don't think is controversial.

Toby you certainly have the right to continue your endless pursuit of the ‘rules’ subject (and actually I agree with many/most of your posts/views on rules).  But frankly I don’t think your obsession with ‘rules’ has been healthy for the self-supported community.  Nor in my opinion has it contributed to any lasting positive outcomes.

It's probably impossible to measure what the outcome has been, either way. Maybe I'm tilting at windmills. But I do know one thing: I'm not the guy who takes it to the personal level (although I will respond if personally attacked). I try to stick to the issues and the arguments. In my experience in the wider world, that approach does make a difference. Discussing ideas is generally a good thing. Making it personal, as you have just done, just makes it a pissing match about personalities--which sucks.

So, I'm going to ignore your efforts to make this whole thing personal. It's not. It's about what we want ultra-racing to look like in the future. It's about how the structure of racing is defined, and how we will achieve those goals. It's about the spirit of racing--not about Toby or Marshal.

[Marshal]

Where have I EVER said that people who don't agree with me should "go away"? I haven't said it,

First you set up a false premise, then you write: Why even enter a RACE if nothing other than your personal experience matters--and relative times, competition, and placement aren't important? Why not just go ride the route on some random day, alone or with friends?

To me you are clearly suggesting racers who don't see things your way 'go away" --your words Toby & you own them

[Done]

First you set up a false premise, then you write: Why even enter a RACE if nothing other than your personal experience matters--and relative times, competition, and placement aren't important? Why not just go ride the route on some random day, alone or with friends?

To me you are clearly suggesting racers who don't see things your way 'go away" --your words Toby & you own them

Yes, I own those words. But I don't own your misinterpretation of their meaning.

I'll try again to explain what I do mean. Here goes: Several people have commented that they don't worry about what others do during a race (to paraphrase, but I think that I've captured the meaning). So far, so good, right? Now contrast this to the usual parameters of a race--which is to compare & compete with other racers. But if comparisons are made invalid by the unfair behavior of other racers, then things get kind of weird. At that point, why join the race? Why not just do an ITT or something?

I think that it's a fair question, because I am genuinely curious about the answer. From my perspective, I wouldn't race if I thought that those around me were cheating with impunity. With the TD in particular, I am very much looking forward to racing it at some point. But if I feel like there's going to be a lot of cheating, I'll probably just ITT it on my own schedule. But I wonder what motivates those who would choose to join the race even if they were aware of the cheating. Why do I care? Because I like seeing things from different perspectives.

[Christopher R. Bennett]

It's interesting that the focus has been almost solely on the issue of finishing times. I would have thoughts things like what Tanner Morgan wrote about in The Cordillera would have been more noteworthy:

Tony and I hit the first section before the Togwotee Lodge, and it was pouring rain and hail, nothing new so far. The short four-mile section took us a few hours to try pushing the bikes through, and to make matters worse, the unsanctioned pavement section that many racers opted to take in lieu of the official route was directly in sight. The mud was so bad that the wheels would no longer roll. After a very tough, cold and wet mud hike to the lodge we got refuge inside by the fire. The storm had us pinned in for the rest of the day and we knew that it was at least in the low 30’s up on the pass with another five-mile “Impassable when wet” section at the top to look forward to. With these upcoming attractions in mind, we opted to stay the night at the Lodge and push on the next morning.

Also, a favor. When I did the post I asked for a civilized discussion. I've received a few rather unpleasant e-mails from some people (not Jeff - we are having a good chat!). If you feel so strongly you should be like the others and post to the site.

[Unai]

For me, the worst thing that can happen to this race is that it becomes very popular and takes a lot of prestige. When that happens, everything will be over ... Because we could put a thousand rules, but it will be impossible to control, there will be many people who cheat to get popularity. For example, how control in a race of 2700 mi, no drafting, not sharing gear, external aid... If not, look at the tour de france. There are a lot of controls, and yet many people are cheating, as doping mode.
 I think that in the Tour Divide few people do "important" traps. I mean "important", these traps that have much effect on the final result. It's not the same, to go drafting for 1 mile or to skip a section of the race. So I'm still willing to go out on the Tour Divide, because yet I think it is a clean race. 

[sthig]

I saw people bend the rules. Its on them, not me. When I rolled in to antelope wells only one thing was on my mind... "Hell yeah!"

[southwestbackcountry]

Until someone is specifically assigned to make the judgements it doesn't matter what anybody thinks.

Your life won't mean a thing in a hundred years anyways, unless you quit biking and start working for the good of humanity. Meantime, just ride other races if you need official results. Better yet, just ride.

[james-o]

None of this needs a jury, there's rules as well as guidance there if you look for it. Underground / unofficial racing appeals to me for exactly the reasons that organised, start and finish line bannered, sponsor-logo number-plated racing doesn't. If it gets a bit wacky-races with some people along the way so be it; you reflect on your experience and I will on mine. Finishing lists and official placings are missing the point of it all imo.

[JeffM-VT]

I've been a little hesitant to post again - after seeing the posts that seemingly ridiculed TD riders, the somewhat personal attacks (though nothing too bad), etc.  I really think that we should all try to state our opinions while being as positive and as respectful as possible.  But here goes (so please be kind!)...

One suggestion I have is for race organizers to make sure that any rules that apply in a given race are communicated clearly.  For the TD - maybe this means a quick e-mail (or text) to all the riders that have put their name down on the Google Doc spreadsheet and/or a quick summary of the rules at the pre-race meeting (run by Crazy Larry and Matt Lee is called in - at least in 2013 the year that I did it).  I believe that some (many?) riders might go into the race without a clear understanding of what the rules are (or what the expected behaviors are).  As they don't spend time in the forums, etc.  So maybe making sure the rules are clear before the start (and how a relegation could occur) would help to minimize the # of these situations.

I also hope that it will be possible to include results in "the Cordillera" in the future.  I would have been disappointed if they were not included in V5 as they help me remember all the great people that I met before and during the race.

I did see (or hear of) some rule bending in the 2013 TD which included the following -

- some sharing of food and bike tools
- some blatant drafting
- a person staying with his wife in a hotel in Silver City before finishing the ride the next day
- a course deviation (the same one that Chris mentions above before the Togwotee Mountain Lodge)

The drafting bothered me the most and me and another rider tried to let the 2 know (they were European) that what they were doing wasn't being looked upon kindly.  They either didn't understand us or ignored us.  However I later found out that the rider following in the slipstream of the 1st rider was having serious knee issues and soon needed to drop out.  The 1st rider (trying to help the 2nd rider survive) wound up finishing in a great time which likely would have been an even better time if he had just abandoned his friend.

I had a beer at the Togwotee Lodge with a person that missed that dirt road section of the course prior to the Lodge (I had missed the turn initially myself and had to backtrack to it) and later we backtracked together to spend the night at the nearby NFS campground.  In the Lodge another rider gently called him out on taking the alternate route but I don't believe that he ever did go back to correct his mistake.  Did this bother me?  No (though I would have gone back and ridden that section in the morning).  Do I think he should have been relegated?  No - and I would have been disappointed if he had as I think he gained very little advantage and I think it was an honest mistake (he missed the turn, later realized it but didn't understand the rules well enough to know that it expected that he go back and ride it).  

The case in Chris's post (from the book) sounds different though.  If someone is purposely deviating from the course to bypass a muddy section then that sounds like that could be considered grounds for a relegation.  But would it be worth it?

Did the person staying with his wife bother me?  Not at all.  In some ways it would have seemed silly not to and he gained no time advantage from doing that.  He most likely lost several hours of time...

So here are some of my opinions -

- the less rules the better and a reasonability test should be applied to every situation being questioned - Did the person really gain an advantage?  Before questioning an infraction - is it really worth complaining about?

- I think results should be included in the book.  I would suggest maybe even more info.  Maybe age and country or state/province.  It is great seeing info on who the racers are - especially if you were in the race that year.  Probably also good for readers that didn't do the race to better understand the race and the international appeal.

- the Afterword in "the Cordillera" should be as uplifting as possible.  I love the V5 Afterword.  I thought the V6 version could have been better

- riding the TD is a pretty self indulgent act - maybe a $50 entry fee should be charged with all the money being donated to a worthy cause

- I love the fact that proceeds from the sale of "the Cordillera" go to David Blumenthal's daughter education fund.  I didn't know him well but David lived only 25 miles away from me in Vermont and I attended one of his map and compass courses a few years ago (left the class thoroughly impressed with him).  He was known mostly for his great work with the Green Mountain Club (hiking club that maintains hundreds of miles of trails including the 270 mile long trail) and is greatly missed here.  His wife and daughter also sound like amazing people from all that I've read...  So I hope that the book continues for years to come.

- True ITT's are much more difficult than participating in a Grand Depart.  The biggest advantage that anyone can get (greater than the minor bending of rules) is to pair up or group up for long stretches.  Solo efforts should be encouraged during Grand Departs.  This one is a little subjective as I loved riding and chatting with others at various times.  I just don't think people should group up for days/weeks on end during the TD.

- I think bikepacking (including ultra races) is one of the greatest things that has ever come along. I love the combination of adventure and competition.  The 5 races that I've done have all been amazing adventures and I hope to get to do TNGA, TNCA, CTR, AZTR 750 along with other races some day.  Much gratitude to Scott Morris, Matthew Lee, Joe Polk and race organizers like Chris Tompkins and Karlos Rodriguez Bernart for making these races possible!  I hope that things continue to grow in a positive manner.

Just my humble opinions...

[richpips]

Seems like many recent posters don't care if others in the race cheat, since they are out there for own personal reasons.

I think for most people doing the TD or similar events is for personal reasons. Other than a bit of sponsorship maybe for the best riders, what else is there in it for them. I'd be surprised if anyone lined up at an underground race so that they could be told they were awesome by somebody on the internet.

I for one when I line up for the TD, like with other events I've done, will have my achievements in mind, and not that of others.

I find the attitude of some posters here detrimental to our pastime / sport to be honest, and can't help but think instead of trying to prescribe what others should do, or berating them for what they have done, that maybe their time would be better spent riding their bikes, improving their games and doing more events.

One thing I note in the various sports that I participate in, is that the majority of people who spout about ethics, the rules etc on forums are not those at the sharp end of the sport.

[Ty]

The sad part about this thread is that somebody could actually take this too seriously and end up hurt or killed trying to follow the "rules" for this "race".  I have personally been on a long bike ride where somebody was killed so yes these things happen.  No I didn't have a direct connection to it other than riding the event but yes the guy is gone and his family without him.  If that happens because some Jimmy Badass is trying to fight it out in the snow without food and no jacket the first people to take crap are going to be the "rule makers".  Then those rule makers are going to backpedal and say it "isnt a race" and Jimmy Badass could have just "done whatever" and it is his own fault.  What race, what rules, what liability?

Anybody who needs external validation for an accomplishment like riding the Tour Divide route is missing the point IMHO.  If you are physically and mentally strong enough to survive I don't see why you need an official place marker to go bragging about.  It just smells like weak sauce and suggests that despite all that strength there is no inner confidence.  Who cares if Toby respects your ride and if you really did it yourself the way he describes? (Sorry Toby I am sure you are a great guy it is just easy to point you out  ).  For most of us who have a stressful day job and maybe a family getting out and "doing whatever" is the best you can do.  Leave the hardline "do it yourself" black and white to hose guys who work at a bike shop and put training as their highest possible priority in life.

I say leave Tour Divide for the rule junkies and start riding "Tour Divided" from South to North (because starting in Banff and heading South at that time of year is stupid as C$ points out over and over).  Tour Divided can start the Saturday after the Friday grand depart from Banff and you can do whatever like stopping to smoke a legal joint in CO or skip some crappy section if you just don't feel like it.  Tour Divided will only suggest you do as much as possible and leave the rest to your own best judgement.  Weekend warriors who took all of their vacation to make it out for Tour Divided fear not the rules and go challenge yourself and find the limit without feeling like you need to be pushed over it.

[Done]

The sad part about this thread is that somebody could actually take this too seriously and end up hurt or killed trying to follow the "rules" for this "race".

Yes, it is true that many outdoor sports and adventures carry with them a high degree of risk. I've spent a lot of time in the mountains as a climber, mountaineer and kayaker--and I have lost friends to all of those sports. It sucks. The Tour Divide is indeed dangerous--one rider (Dave Blumenthal) was killed a few years ago after crossing the center line on a long winding decent and hitting truck. Very sad, especially since he had a young daughter.

But the first "rule" of adventure sports is that riders must accept responsibility for their actions and decisions. Anyone who dies while trying to adhere to the rules of a bikepacking race is solely responsible for their own fate. Not Matthew Lee and not me. If someone has to choose between death and following the rules, they've really missed the point. The logical course of action is simply to quit the race--or accept a slower finish to avoid bad weather, etc.

Who cares if Toby respects your ride and if you really did it yourself the way he describes? (Sorry Toby I am sure you are a great guy it is just easy to point you out  )

I doubt that anyone cares whether I respect their ride, so no arguments there! But following the TD rules isn't "the way that I describe it"--it is how the founders of the race defined it. Yes, I am a vocal champion of upholding those ethics--but they aren't mine.

I say leave Tour Divide for the rule junkies and start riding "Tour Divided" from South to North (because starting in Banff and heading South at that time of year is stupid as C$ points out over and over).  Tour Divided can start the Saturday after the Friday grand depart from Banff and you can do whatever like stopping to smoke a legal joint in CO or skip some crappy section if you just don't feel like it.  Tour Divided will only suggest you do as much as possible and leave the rest to your own best judgement.

Sounds great to me! I'd much rather see people choose the race formats that fits their particular styles, than see people re-define existing races to fit their limitations. Tour Divided--I love the name!

[ScottM]

This idea has been tossed around some in other threads, as well as in some conversations I've had.  What if there was a different event, or a different classification for riders that want to race the divide, but do not want to adhere to a strict self-support (or even route) ideal?

How likely is it that of the ~100 people that show up for TD each year, that all of them really want to be 100% self supported, or even understand what that means?  That when the going gets tough, and conditions are miserable or unsafe, they are willing to sit it out, or endure?  Even when it doesn't make any sense to proceed?

I've seen the Togwotee mud.  When there's a paved road that takes you to the same place, and stays within a couple miles of the route, it really doesn't make sense to take the route.  It might even be irresponsible to stay on the route.  It's easy to see why some people rationalize such a blatant violation (the course is the course is the course -- there are no arguments about what the course means and is) in those situations.  

Some wouldn't dream of such a violation, especially if you're at the pointy end of things or shooting for a record.  But most people aren't, and they can and should be happy with the amazing adventure they accomplished.  No one is going to say they didn't complete the GDMBR to a high ideal and amazingly fast (even if 30-40 days, or whatever).  They just aren't really an official TD finisher if they intentionally skipped sections of the course or made other clear violations of agreed upon ideas of self support.

It makes a lot of sense to me.  Personally if I were not going to race for the win or a record in TD, I would sign up for such a category, or such a race.  I'd much rather have the ability and freedom to change my route (a little).  I'd much rather have the social aspect and camaraderie that might come from sharing gear, food and a slipstream.   It's still self-supported (no crews, no caches).  It's still the divide route (you might have to define a percentage of the route you need to cover -- ACA says 90% on their maps for an official completion, IIRC.

We might need to re-examine self-support in light of the huge number of middle-of-the-packers that are by definition the largest group out there.  Honestly, MikeC, Stamstad, Matthew, myself (et al) didn't really envision these rules being applied to 100+ riders.  They are designed with highly competitive racers in mind, and mostly designed for fairness between those racers.   Recent editions of TD and CTR have seemed to indicate a wide gap between the few highly competitive folks, and the rest of the racers.  (Side note: I know there are highly competitive racers that aren't necessarily fast and have huge respect for them -- they are some of the ones that, rightly so, get upset when people around them violate rules -- but I think there are still relatively few).

I know Matthew has offered some potentially relegated racers the fallback of submitting their rides (and times) to ACA for an official completion by the 90% rule.  That's a great option for people to have and one they should be very proud of.  The divide is difficult to complete, regardless of style.  But this goes back to what Toby asked -- why are people showing up if they don't intend to follow the rules?  Why not do their own thing?

The answer is that they want to be a part of something.  Be a part of the event. Be a part of a community.  I'm sure every finisher reading this can attest to the connections they've made through TD.  The issue is that being a TD finisher is a binary operation.  If the outcome is false (relegated) there's immediate bad feelings.  They didn't do what they set out to do.

The other issue is that many people simply don't know that they don't want to follow the route 100%, or the self-support ethos 100%, until they get out there.  It's easy to sit at home, or on a 100 mile gravel grinder, and not be able to imagine any set of circumstances that could cause you to falter.  But when Togwotee is death mud and you've been pissed on by rain and mud for the last 15+ days, you might change your mind.  The hardest of purists won't, but most people will, if this year's SPOT tracks are any indication.

This brings me to the problems with this idea.  How many people are really going to sign up for a 'lower' category?  How many will really know if they want to follow strict self-support until they are actually out there?  For many TD is their first bikepack race, or even bikepack period.

How do you get people to sign up for such a category, when it is perceived as lesser?  When the heroes that maybe motivated them to sign up in the first place are in the higher category?  What about when people sign up for strict self-support, then decide to drop out of it, or are relegated out of it.  Will the hurt feelings and bickering still be as bad?

How do we create the culture that this lesser category is still prestigious, and worthy of aspiring to?  I certainly think it is.  I don't know, but I like a lot of aspects of this idea, while still seeing some problems with it, too.

Thoughts?

[Done]

How do we create the culture that this lesser category is still prestigious, and worthy of aspiring to?  I certainly think it is.  I don't know, but I like a lot of aspects of this idea, while still seeing some problems with it, too.
Thoughts?

I think that getting your butt from Banff to Mexico is an incredible feat, regardless of whether rules were broken in minor (and even major) ways. I feel the same way about the CTR.

I would choose to race the stricter version, even if though don't have a chance of winning. Why? Because I get a stupid degree of satisfaction from Doing It Myself. That's what drew me to this sport. I think that a lot of people feel this way, regardless of how quickly they race.

But there are definitely a number of very outspoken people in this thread who feel differently. And they have valid points for sure. I think that giving them their own race is a great idea. Neither approach is superior--just different.

Why not give it a try?