The Spirit of the Tour Divide

[JeffM-VT]

I like that the tone of this forum has gotten much better the last couple days with very constructive posts.  I think all the recent posts have been excellent - thought provoking, etc.

I agree with Marshal that making sure that riders understand the rules is probably a great start.  I still think going over the rules in the pre-race meeting might be a good idea.  Following is from one of my earlier posts -

One suggestion I have is for race organizers to make sure that any rules that apply in a given race are communicated clearly.  For the TD - maybe this means a quick e-mail (or text) to all the riders that have put their name down on the Google Doc spreadsheet and/or a quick summary of the rules at the pre-race meeting (run by Crazy Larry and Matt Lee is called in - at least in 2013 the year that I did it).  I believe that some (many?) riders might go into the race without a clear understanding of what the rules are (or what the expected behaviors are).  As they don't spend time in the forums, etc.  So maybe making sure the rules are clear before the start (and how a relegation could occur) would help to minimize the # of these situations.

I know that Matt Lee does get in touch with racers about Trackleaders sign-up, etc. but I don't remember these including any info on rules or expectations (but I may have just forgotten).  I do remember that Matthew encouraged all of us to ride solo in the pre-race meeting...  As a matter of good style.

I also agree with tanman that these posts are getting repetitive.  I'm new to posting in open forums like this and it does get frustrating that there is no moderator, no one facilitating the discussion.  My hope is that Scott (and Matt - if he is lurking) will take everyone's suggestions and maybe have the time to give more thought to the best ideas and maybe come back to the bikepacking community with some conclusions (or a proposal) for feedback.  I work in the IT world where we're taught that the more time you spend up front working (brainstorming, analysis, etc.) on a good system solution the less time you spend fixing problems later.  But only if there is a process for turning the well thought out ideas/solutions into a system. 

I'm also glad that we're discussing "racing style" vs. "rules adherence".  Should accepting someone's unsolicited offer of an elk steak be considered support (and thus a rules violation)?  Or maybe just poor style?  Or maybe just considered good luck?  I still contend that the greatest advantage anyone can get is pairing up or grouping up where there is constant moral support, etc.  Is this even considered bad style?  Should there be rules discussing this?  I think that bmike's suggestion is an interesting one.

I have a couple of questions (sparked by tanman's proposed start of an FAQ list) -

- in TD '13 - another rider and I were having a few beers in a bar in Pinedale and someone picked up the tab for our beers.  It didn't cross my mind at the time but now I'm wondering if some might consider that support.  Should we have refused their generosity?

- in my first race (AML 400 two years ago) - I was running low on water and saw someone working in his yard in rural WV so stopped and asked if I could fill up my water bottles.  Is that against the rules since it wasn't a commercial establishment?

- in the TD I stopped at a house (people were in the driveway and I saw a hose right there) and asked if I could borrow someone's hose to clean out the mud that was seriously clogging things up on my bike - would that be considered to be against the rules?

- also in the TD I flatted right in front of a house.  Someone came out and offered me the use of their air compressor.  I turned down this unsolicited offer but if I had accepted - would this have been against the rules?  I'm pretty sure this one is a "yes" but am curious if anyone would disagree.

I'm seriously curious about these situations.  I understand the concept of self supported but sometimes think that serendipity should be part of the spirit of the TD.

[Eszter]

I think that the issue with trying to put together a comprehensive FAQ list is that it's an impossible task. There's always going to be a situation that is completely unpredictable that there's no answer for. And, IMHO, the more complicated/complex a rule set it, the more loopholes are going to be found and exploited, and used to justify questionable behavior.

When I went for my run on TD, I wanted there to be no question of breaching self-support, thus passing up steak in Wyoming, water in the desert, and snacks from other bike tourists. I don't for a second think that these are the right standards to hold everyone to. There is beauty in trail magic and the people you meet through it, but then there's a limit to it as well.

If you're out of water and someone offers you a bottle, without asking of yogi-ing, is that okay? Versus, your tire blows up 50 miles from a shop and someone driving by happens to have a bike on their roof and offers you a tire, is that okay? A spare derailleur cable? A new pair of dry socks?

Unless we, as a community, explicitly say that Trail Magic is forbidden, it's impossible to put a hard limit on what is okay and not okay. And I don't think anyone wants to completely ban trail magic.

I once got called out for getting water at a Lions club (or some other sort of establishment) during the Stagecoach 400 as a non-commercial location. Did I think the accusation was silly? Sure. But, would I have considered taking water from a resident? No.

I guess I'm saying that everyone has different ideas of "okay" and trying to codify 'ok' vs 'not ok' is an impossible task. And then enforcement of it...it would turn into a battle royal of 'he said she said'. Ugly.

[ABfolder]

Pairing up and grouping up is definitely an advantage -- although some might consider that a disadvantage if they're faster or have more endurance and are lumping along in a group. The other biggie to me is sleeping out every night vs the use of a heated or air conditioned hotel/motel. Since I'm currently looking at TD videos for a "Best of the Bunch" list, I happened across this snippet from Matthew Lee in one of them: "I can't sleep inside. I'm doing no hotels. I'm sleeping in my sleeping bag outside the whole time."

That to me encapsulates the true Spirit of the Tour Divide.

[tanman1337]

I agree that there are a million "what if" situations Eszter, but even if we were to write down as many as we can collectively think of, wouldn't that give someone who is brand new to the sport a better look at what veterans see as "support"?

[tanman1337]

I just know that I must have asked 20 or 30 of these kinds of "support" questions throughout my first race and on the threads. So if it was just collaboratively put onto an FAQ page, wouldn't that at least be a step in the right direction? As of now, newcomers must comb through hundreds and hundreds of pages of past race to pick posts out here and there to put together what they "think" are some of the scenarios they might experience during their first race. I don't know...I understand that there would be a never ending list and I also understand that the simple rules that we have now "should" be enough, but I just feel like this is the only constructive idea I really can think of...

[Eszter]

But who is the "authority" on what is allowed or not? Clearly, if we give a dozen different people the same set of FAQ's to answer, we'll get a dozen different answers. Who's right? Do we take an average? A vote?

[tanman1337]

Yah that is very true, I understand the conundrum. I think whoever has the most invested in creating each race such as Scott or Matt. I personally don't really care what the rules are, but more that they are spelled out a little more so that newcomers know what is right and what is wrong. As far as what they are....it's not as important. I feel like if Scott were to say, "No cell phones allowed" or something as black and white as that then maybe not everyone agrees with it, but if they want to "race" they must not use a cell phone. If they want to ride the course any other day or time then have at it.

[tanman1337]

Just like I think the rule of "no drafting" is very straight forward. There is zero room for interpretation there and I made sure that every step of the way when I would run across different racers during the TD this year I would never even get close to a drafting position behind them. Very easy straight forward rule

[tanman1337]

I do think that the whole "Trail Magic" think is kind of what makes things start to turn grey...where do you draw the line? That is when we run into a ton of different "what if" scenarios. So I say do away with trail magic. PERIOD

[tanman1337]

That would be the easiest way to cut through the most amount of grey matter that we are experiencing

[Eszter]

Is having someone buy you a beer in town Trail Magic?

If the cashier a Qdoba in Silverthorn gives you a free cookie (true story), is that Trail Magic?

If you share a hotel room with a non-TD racer to save money, is that Trail Magic?

Trading a Snickers Bar for a Milky Way with another racer, is that Trail Magic?

Saying that you're not allowed to ride with other people would also cut through gray matter. No drafting. No sharing food. No sharing advice or trail beta. No camping together for safety in grizzly country. Carry your own damn bear spray!

But I don't think that that's what most people are looking for when they sign up for TD. If it were black and white, we would't be having this discussion.

[tanman1337]

Yah that is very true... I'm sure we all have a billion of these situations that have personally happened during these rides... So how can we rightfully criticize anyone for breaking the "rules"?

[tanman1337]

And around and around we go...

[tanman1337]

So maybe we just need to get more "gray" and not care so much... The competitors that are actually trying to break records are probably the best stewards of following the rules, so I guess in the end...does it really matter?

[tanman1337]

I would like to think I'm a pretty outspoken person, but I think I'm totally split decision on this one... I'm sympathetic to both sides and totally understand the people that want a specific set of rules, but I also understand the need to have a little common sense and integrity about the simple rules and just to enjoy the ride for what it is. I'm torn.

[dp]

I'm a noob, so take this with a grain of salt.

As riders, we’re attracted to events like this in part because of the rules.  And when I say “rules” I mean those listed on the tourdivide website – not anything listed here.  They’re simple, and they’re tough.  And they don’t need to be changed.  That being said, the rules on the tourdivide website could stand to be reformatted.  The way they look at present is a bit confusing.  Not saying that a thinking person can’t figure out what’s what, but it is a bit messy.  (My HTML chops are rusty (!), but if I can be of help in this area, I’m glad to pitch in.)

The only thing I’d add to the rules is a note on honorable self-relegation.  I know the rules already say that riders can be relegated (presumably by some supervisory entity), and I know they say we should police ourselves.  But there should be something in the rules that conveys the expectation that if a racer breaks a rule, he/she should have the integrity to take him or herself out of the race.  And then include instructions on how to do that (email to whom, call to mtbcast, whatever).

There’s no need to create another class of racer.  There’s already another class.  It’s called tourist.  It just doesn’t come with the prestige of having your pointy blue dot chasing its way down the continent with all the others on the race page at trackleaders.  Maybe that’s a tough pill for those who want to be seen rolling with the fast crowd.

As for me, I’m not even sure which way I’m going to go in 2015 – racing or touring.  Like Marshal wrote earlier, I’m one of those for whom this will be my first foray into multi-day racing.  Would I like to see my blue dot (more to the point, would I like to have others see my blue dot) on the race page at trackleaders?  Heck yeah!  Do I plan to uphold the rules as written?  I do.  But my primary goal is going to be learning – learning the course, learning how to do be a part of this crazy sport, learning what I’m capable of.  Is that really racing?  I don’t even know.  But unless I put that pressure on myself – the expectation that I’m going to push myself at something like a race pace – my outing could easily devolve into a leisurely tour.  And that’s not what I want.

So I’m racing.  And I’ll play by the rules.  And if I end up breaking a rule for any of a million reasons, well, hopefully you’ll hear about it from me first.

-dp

[tanman1337]

DP, I like that. Maybe a little more emphasis on self-relegation and an official way to do so or a person to ask if such an event warrants relegation. That could get messy though, so I believe self-relegation should be looked at as more honorable than being relegated by one's peers or an "official" because of an intentional rule infraction

[Done]

Is that really racing?  I don’t even know.  But unless I put that pressure on myself – the expectation that I’m going to push myself at something like a race pace – my outing could easily devolve into a leisurely tour.  And that’s not what I want.

Yep, that's racing. I like your style, dp. Good luck out there!

[Marshal]

Rule Clarity:
Who has the final say with regards to specific event rules, the correct interpretation and if/when needed enforcement?  It seems self-evident that the particular event organizer does.  He or she could (and perhaps should) ask for offline/expert help but in the end only they can provide “their” intent, understanding and enforcement of said rule.  They in essence are the final authority for their event.

Trail Magic:
I feel Trail Magic will always be a fuzzy. I also feel in (not all) many cases it’s irrelevant to actual results. If I was an event organizer I would use the following rule of thumb for trail magic: if it’s unsolicited, not pre-arranged and has no or minor impact to your finish time it’s your call.  IE: acceptance of unsolicited trail magic is many/most cases a matter of form or style rather than a matter of rule infraction.  

Drafting and Teams (one of my pet peeve’s):
To my knowledge drafting is always a rule infraction.  To my understanding “pre-arranged” teams or groups equals pre-arranged support equals a rule infraction (one worthy of regulation imo).  The gray area here involves hooking up with someone along the way and what’s acceptable when you do.  The effect on forward progress, positive or negative can be significant. So I think this is one area where the event organizers can and should repetitively signal their expectations for their particular event.  Signal not just their personal ‘style or form’ preferences, but rather explicitly communicate what constitutes a rule infraction for their event.  
Disclaimer: I have personally experienced both the advantages and disadvantages of casually teaming up with someone during a multi-day race.

[tanman1337]

Well said Marshal. I too believe that it is in the race organizer's hands. If I want to create my own bikepacking event in the middle of the summer in Yuma and set a rule that outlaws sunscreen then so be it! Not many people will come, but if I'm putting forth the effort to create and maintain a certain race, I believe it is only fair that I should have a set of rules. I think that if anyone disagrees with the set rules, they will either try talking some sense into the organizer or show up to ride the course on any other day of the year using your own rule set.