The Spirit of the Tour Divide

[robinb]

Frustration is really seated in things that we cannot control - so let's focus on what we can control.

Course deviation - trackleaders can see when racers do not follow the designated route (unknowingly or knowingly). When that type of rule violation happens, you are relegated and off the trackleaders site - your 'race' is over.

Everything else can't be controlled - we can hope all those entered follow the self-supported ethos - but ultimately that HAS to be left up to the racer - no calling out another racer.  Race your own race...

The TD.org site says it best...

Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men —Douglas Bader

To thine own self be true - Hamlet

[Marshal]

Frustration is really seated in things that we cannot control - so let's focus on what we can control.

Course deviation - trackleaders can see when racers do not follow the designated route (unknowingly or knowingly). When that type of rule violation happens, you are relegated and off the trackleaders site - your 'race' is over.

Everything else can't be controlled - we can hope all those entered follow the self-supported ethos - but ultimately that HAS to be left up to the racer - no calling out another racer.  Race your own race...

The TD.org site says it best...

Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men —Douglas Bader

To thine own self be true - Hamlet

robinb, while I concur with the sentiment, for many I don't think rule enforcement is that simple.....

Post-Race Rule Enforcement?

Before I offer some quick comment on rule enforcement I would reiterate the “pre-race” items that might be re-emphasized or refined.  I really think some version of these items might reduce the need to enforce infractions “post-race” and help level the field for everyone during the race.

With some type of overview/final say by event organizers:
1.   1 recognized Result location after the race is finished (trackleaders, google page whatever—but one that is ultimately signed off on by the organizer)
2.   An authorized signup sheet (to perhaps include rule acknowledgment check off box?)
3.   FAQ and/or offers of one on one dialogue regarding event rules.
4.   Clear distinction is made between various race strategies (styles or forms) and actual rule infraction.

Rule Enforcement:
As I said earlier I try not to let rule infractions bother me ‘during’ a race.  It’s going to happen to some degree, and as was implied earlier, the actions of others are pretty much beyond our control during the race.

But just because rule enforcement is problematic and can be very unpleasant do we turn our backs on it?  Once again I will support the organizer, they want to be casual or firm it’s ultimately their call.

But if the organizer implements methods of enforcement what might they look like?

•   Preliminary results then ‘review period’ then Final Results?

•   Review Period to include mechanism for racer Protest?  Something like we can protest to the organizer against a fellow racer but we take ownership by taking the risk of a time penalty if our protest is denied.

•   Spot or GPS aid in verification of route adherence? This seems a no brainer but there is more to it than just watching the trackleaders pages. Lost Spots, dead batteries and occasional false coordinates amongst others.  

•   On the other hand you can infer a lot from Spot or GPS data, studying avg speeds, time of day, weather conditions, locations etc can give insight into possible route deviations.  And also Spot or GPS data combined with call-in’s, social media or post-race reports can point to possible rule infractions that could/might need to be reviewed.

•   Self-reporting of possible infractions, big or small, for adjudication?

•   Consequences: name stricken from finish list, regulation (time but no place), publicly or privately banned from future event, time penalty, asterisk with corresponding explanation, other???

Now that I am talking rule enforcement I am going to refrain from posting for a while as I feel I have been monopolizing the discussion……..but I would finish with pointing out that most of my comments involve action from event organizers in some fashion—and they already carry a heavy load -- I am not asking they simply ‘work’ harder, I have a real concern that their wonderful underground events might become too much work and fade away if ways are not found to smooth out some of the ‘rule’ stuff..............

[robinb]

robinb, while I concur with the sentiment, for many I don't think rule enforcement is that simple.....

but we CAN control how simple or complicated we want this to get...

i vote for simple...

[Done]

robinb, while I concur with the sentiment, for many I don't think rule enforcement is that simple.....

Post-Race Rule Enforcement?

Before I offer some quick comment on rule enforcement I would reiterate the “pre-race” items that might be re-emphasized or refined.  I really think some version of these items might reduce the need to enforce infractions “post-race” and help level the field for everyone during the race.

With some type of overview/final say by event organizers:
1.   1 recognized Result location after the race is finished (trackleaders, google page whatever—but one that is ultimately signed off on by the organizer)
2.   An authorized signup sheet (to perhaps include rule acknowledgment check off box?)
3.   FAQ and/or offers of one on one dialogue regarding event rules.
4.   Clear distinction is made between various race strategies (styles or forms) and actual rule infraction.

Rule Enforcement:
As I said earlier I try not to let rule infractions bother me ‘during’ a race.  It’s going to happen to some degree, and as was implied earlier, the actions of others are pretty much beyond our control during the race.

But just because rule enforcement is problematic and can be very unpleasant do we turn our backs on it?  Once again I will support the organizer, they want to be casual or firm it’s ultimately their call.

But if the organizer implements methods of enforcement what might they look like?

•   Preliminary results then ‘review period’ then Final Results?

•   Review Period to include mechanism for racer Protest?  Something like we can protest to the organizer against a fellow racer but we take ownership by taking the risk of a time penalty if our protest is denied.

•   Spot or GPS aid in verification of route adherence? This seems a no brainer but there is more to it than just watching the trackleaders pages. Lost Spots, dead batteries and occasional false coordinates amongst others. 

•   On the other hand you can infer a lot from Spot or GPS data, studying avg speeds, time of day, weather conditions, locations etc can give insight into possible route deviations.  And also Spot or GPS data combined with call-in’s, social media or post-race reports can point to possible rule infractions that could/might need to be reviewed.

•   Self-reporting of possible infractions, big or small, for adjudication?

•   Consequences: name stricken from finish list, regulation (time but no place), publicly or privately banned from future event, time penalty, asterisk with corresponding explanation, other???

Now that I am talking rule enforcement I am going to refrain from posting for a while as I feel I have been monopolizing the discussion……..but I would finish with pointing out that most of my comments involve action from event organizers in some fashion—and they already carry a heavy load -- I am not asking they simply ‘work’ harder, I have a real concern that their wonderful underground events might become too much work and fade away if ways are not found to smooth out some of the ‘rule’ stuff..............

You just made me look like a moderate, Marshal

[rick miller]

Apologies for another long post in an already long thread.  I hadn't intended to comment; unless advances in medical science make it possible for me to pedal long hours for 3+ weeks, I have no plans to enter the TD.  But I had a good rookie season in other races this year and I realize that the TD is the "gold standard" of ultra mountainbiking.  The direction of the TD will have enormous influence on the direction of the sport in general. 

I grew up in alpine ski racing in the 60's and 70's when the rules probably fit on a two sided sheet of paper - similar to where bikepacking is currently.  Now the rule book is half an inch thick, rulemaking is a multimillion dollar industry, and nobody understands them.  At the same time we spend most of our time debating how to increase 'athlete participation and retention', while kids drift off to the simpler and more relevant discipines in the free skiing world. 

The lesson:  keep it simple.  The rules should provide a realistic and reasonable baseline for behavior that everyone can understand and follow without stopping the bike to read the rulebook.  The rules should be guided by the principal that no one should have an unfair advantage. Period.  Style is important and is something every rider should be encouraged to aspire to, but that should not be the purpose of rules.  The distinction is important.

My second point is a personal plea, which has been made before, but which I would like to emphasize.  Please don't try to make the sport easy or popular by lowering standards.  I'm here because it is hard, because only a very few can successfully complete a bikepacking race, and mostly because the outcome is always in doubt - for even the best.  We have few enough opportunities for such challenges in this world - don't yield to mediocrity and take that away. 

[mikepro]

My second point is a personal plea, which has been made before, but which I would like to emphasize.  Please don't try to make the sport easy or popular by lowering standards.  I'm here because it is hard, because only a very few can successfully complete a bikepacking race, and mostly because the outcome is always in doubt - for even the best.  We have few enough opportunities for such challenges in this world - don't yield to mediocrity and take that away. 

I share the same opinion and sentiment.  And, keep it simple.  And hard.

Also, I like how the thread discussion is long.  It gives me the impression that people in the community care.

[JosiahM]

I find it odd that it is almost completely the people who seem to be 100% against all organizationally governed races are the same people who are pushing for bikepacking style races to become one of them.
These races are only what each individual rider wants it to be.  If a rider chooses to skirt around the "rules" outlined for the bike ride that he is on, then he is only shorting himself out on the experience.  Other racers have nothing to gain by pointing fingers or bringing other people down for their own personal perception of what the ride means to THEM.
Of course people should be encouraged to ride these rides to the higher level of respect for the self supported intent of the ride's conception.... but they should be encouraged to do that for the sake of getting the most out of their own experience.
Any given person who chooses to toe the line at any one of these events comes from a different background and they all have a different idea of what they want to get out of the ride (emotionally, etc).  I don't think any one person has the right to judge others out there based on their own perceptions of what they think the ride should be.
Each of the people out there have made great sacrifices to be there and are all after a different experience.  For some people, part of the experience they are wanting to get from this ride is to share memories with people who they meet along the route... some people will choose to use their ride to uplift and encourage all the local people they meet along the route as well.  I'm pretty sure that many of the proposed rules and restrictions listed requiring racers to turn their nose up to everyone they meet along the route would limit any rider from having these kind of experiences.
My last thought it this... I am really taken back by all the comments that people who do not intend to race at a competitive pace should not be allowed to be on trackleaders.  trackleaders is a great website allowing loved ones to monitor a riders location and make sure they are on route and has plenty of clues to let people know if things are not going right.  Not only would limiting this service hurt the riders and their family, but it also hurts the income source for the very website that you are using to make these comments.  why should you get to decide who trackleaders can and cannot sell a service to???

after all my rant, I guess the point was to say that the whole idea of this ride is to make the most of your own experience when you take this once in a lifetime opportunity to journey across the states and not worry about the experience that others around you may be having or not having.  Either that or we can call UCI to come organize these races and we can all give blood samples and pee in a cup every day to prove we aren't cheating.

[Eszter]

I think the split seems to be between the people who want to race on a fair playing field and people who want to ride the route in order to 'be a part' of something. I think both are good reasons to be out there, and I think that both groups should have the opportunity to be tracked by Trackleaders, but I think that showing up to the Grand Depart and then cutting the course and then still claiming to be part of the "race" (and then sending nasty hate-mail to Scott and Matthew when relegated) shows a lack of respect to the people who are out there racing and following the rules of the Gentle(wo)mans agreement, whether they're at the front, middle, or back of the pack.

I don't care how fast people ride the thing, but I do believe that when you show up to the start of the event, you're agreeing to respect the rules.

No, we don't need the UCI, or WADA, or USAC, but it seems pretty clear that a free-for-all with no governing rules isn't what people are looking for. If you want to do your own thing and make up your own route, go touring. It's a wonderful activity and you meet a lot of really amazing people along the way.

[Done]

I think the split seems to be between the people who want to race on a fair playing field and people who want to ride the route in order to 'be a part' of something. I think both are good reasons to be out there, and I think that both groups should have the opportunity to be tracked by Trackleaders, but I think that showing up to the Grand Depart and then cutting the course and then still claiming to be part of the "race" (and then sending nasty hate-mail to Scott and Matthew when relegated) shows a lack of respect to the people who are out there racing and following the rules of the Gentle(wo)mans agreement, whether they're at the front, middle, or back of the pack.

I don't care how fast people ride the thing, but I do believe that when you show up to the start of the event, you're agreeing to respect the rules.

No, we don't need the UCI, or WADA, or USAC, but it seems pretty clear that a free-for-all with no governing rules isn't what people are looking for. If you want to do your own thing and make up your own route, go touring. It's a wonderful activity and you meet a lot of really amazing people along the way.

In a kinder and gentler way, Eszter, you just said what I've tried to say this entire thread. Thanks!

[bmike-vt]

In the end though, you do need someone, or some group of someones to maintain rules / records / times / finishers / etc. And put people on that list if deemed appropriate.

Somewhere, sometime, someone needs to draw a line and enforce who gets across it.

I don't think it can be done on a forum thread. But it can be done in a small group, online or off. Or it can be a benevolent dictator that lets folks play in his or her sand box - but everyone playing has to abide by the rules.

[JosiahM]

I think the split seems to be between the people who want to race on a fair playing field and people who want to ride the route in order to 'be a part' of something. I think both are good reasons to be out there, and I think that both groups should have the opportunity to be tracked by Trackleaders, but I think that showing up to the Grand Depart and then cutting the course and then still claiming to be part of the "race" (and then sending nasty hate-mail to Scott and Matthew when relegated) shows a lack of respect to the people who are out there racing and following the rules of the Gentle(wo)mans agreement, whether they're at the front, middle, or back of the pack.

I don't care how fast people ride the thing, but I do believe that when you show up to the start of the event, you're agreeing to respect the rules.

No, we don't need the UCI, or WADA, or USAC, but it seems pretty clear that a free-for-all with no governing rules isn't what people are looking for. If you want to do your own thing and make up your own route, go touring. It's a wonderful activity and you meet a lot of really amazing people along the way.

I think we all kind of want the same thing.  I think the difference of opinion is just what it takes to get it there.
I've been a part of organized and officiated races and I've been a part of these style races.  I can say that the reason I have drawn to these grassroots style rides/races is simply because I have enough chaos in my every day life and I wanted to spend my vacation time experiencing something that allowed me to completely escape all of that and not worry about the rest of the world or what anyone else is doing.  I know this whole discussion is in good intent.  However, for me, all the back and forth trying to enforce and create new rules and standards kind of takes away from what is so simple and awesome about these events in the first place.  And all the accusations and animosity, while trying to make the race better, could actually destroy the race for what it is today.  I, for one, have developed a bad taste in my mouth towards these races simply because of all the bickering that has come out of this forum.  Maybe what we really need is for more of the 'pure' riders to be out there riding the rides in a 'pure' fashion and setting a good example for all the others?  self-govern! (yeah I know some people won't, but that's their problem and a lie they will have to live with for the rest of their lives)

[dp]

after all my rant, I guess the point was to say that the whole idea of this ride is to make the most of your own experience when you take this once in a lifetime opportunity to journey across the states and not worry about the experience that others around you may be having or not having.  Either that or we can call UCI to come organize these races and we can all give blood samples and pee in a cup every day to prove we aren't cheating.

I'm pretty sure you just described touring.

My last thought it this... I am really taken back by all the comments that people who do not intend to race at a competitive pace should not be allowed to be on trackleaders.  trackleaders is a great website allowing loved ones to monitor a riders location and make sure they are on route and has plenty of clues to let people know if things are not going right.  Not only would limiting this service hurt the riders and their family, but it also hurts the income source for the very website that you are using to make these comments.  why should you get to decide who trackleaders can and cannot sell a service to???

Tourists can be on trackleaders, on the Great Divide Route General Live Tracker (trackleaders.com/divide). They just don't show up on the race page (trackleaders.com/tourdivide14).

-dp

[Done]

JosiahM, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the history of this sport. But the original racers tended to be very strict when it came to following the rules. For the most part, they were very "pure."

It's only more recently that people have begun to approach the sport in a more leisurely style--which often includes taking many rules with a grain of salt.

[sfuller]

I tried on like a coat the idea/concept of somehow creating a recognized ‘finish’ for those who want to experience the TDR and do arrive in AW, but outside the TDR rule set.  After all it really is big deal to reach AW by bike. I even had some offline discussions about the concept.

In my, albeit rookie, opinion this already exists - "Touring the GDMBR". A lot of people successfully do this every year. Some of them take as long as two or three months, others take a lot less time.

[JosiahM]

JosiahM, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the history of this sport. But the original racers tended to be very strict when it came to following the rules. For the most part, they were very "pure."

It's only more recently that people have begun to approach the sport in a more leisurely style--which often includes taking many rules with a grain of salt.

but they were also responsible for governing themselves.  it was completely on their own conscience when they did not follow the rules.  And, in my personal opinion, adding a 3rd party governing body seems to always take personal responsibility and conscience out of the hands of the individuals, which generally leads to people looking for more ways to cheat.  case in point, tour de france....
another example was in school whenever I was in tests, there were always certain people who would cheat on the tests.  even though there were professors and proctors watching for them to cheat, they would find a way to cheat when the professors turned around.  the problem wasn't that the professor turned around or walked to the other side of the room.  The problem was that the individuals did not hold themselves to a high enough standard to learn the material instead of cheating.
my opinion is just one of many opinions, but I just fear that if these events become less grassroots(self regulated, self governed and personal responsibilities) and more outside governed, then there may be more and more people relying on the governing body to be responsible for them and regulating them so they don't have to regulate themselves or be responsible for their own moral conduct.
what I've seen in races with governing bodies is that many people will break the rules whenever the officials are not looking.  what I have seen in these self governed races is that most the people there want to be responsible for themselves and do a good job doing so.
oh well.  like I said, that's only my own opinion based on my own experience, which is fairly mute in a world of other opinions, I guess.

Edit Note:
My comment on the moral character of other riders is based on my experience with people in other similar events, not this one in particular.  maybe the people in the other races I have attended were not representative of those on this particular race.

[sfuller]

As for me, I’m not even sure which way I’m going to go in 2015 – racing or touring.  Like Marshal wrote earlier, I’m one of those for whom this will be my first foray into multi-day racing.  Would I like to see my blue dot (more to the point, would I like to have others see my blue dot) on the race page at trackleaders?  Heck yeah!  Do I plan to uphold the rules as written?  I do.  But my primary goal is going to be learning – learning the course, learning how to do be a part of this crazy sport, learning what I’m capable of.  Is that really racing?  I don’t even know.  But unless I put that pressure on myself – the expectation that I’m going to push myself at something like a race pace – my outing could easily devolve into a leisurely tour.  And that’s not what I want.

So I’m racing.  And I’ll play by the rules.  And if I end up breaking a rule for any of a million reasons, well, hopefully you’ll hear about it from me first.

dp - Your thoughts echo mine almost to the letter. Hopefully we get a chance to share a beverage a few days before the start.

[JosiahM]

are all riders supposed to write a letter of intent? perhaps it should be recommended that they include an intent to follow the rules of the race while on route and relegate themselves from the category of racer if they should have to deviate from the guidelines of the rules.  that way they at least have to remember they made that promise when they are out there making the questionable decisions.   Will it help?  I don't really know.  I know I would think back to that letter I wrote every time I was faced with making a questionable decision.

[sfuller]

...I think that both groups should have the opportunity to be tracked by Trackleaders, but I think that showing up to the Grand Depart and then cutting the course and then still claiming to be part of the "race" (and then sending nasty hate-mail to Scott and Matthew when relegated) shows a lack of respect to the people who are out there racing and following the rules of the Gentle(wo)mans agreement, whether they're at the front, middle, or back of the pack.

I know of a couple of people touring the GDMBR this summer that were being tracked on Trackleaders, but on the Great Divide Route General Live Tracker page, not the race page.  Agreed on the remainder of this quoted section as well.

[M Harris]

I’m new to all this and in fact I think this is the first time that I have ever made a comment on a blog or even on the Internet.  I first heard about the Great Divide Race from a friend.  I watched the movie and I was hooked, what really drew me in was the quote from Mathew Lee

“Life's too short not to take adventures like this; you have to make these types of experiences a priority.”

I read the rules and started diving full on into this event reading everything I could get my hand on when I came across this discussion thread and after reading for a while I was confused, I stated to question what I was getting into.  There were a lot of very passionate people writing in.  I calmed myself remembered why I wanted to do this race.  I went back and read the rules again and unless I missed something they seemed pretty straightforward.    The bottom line for me is that you race the race on the Honor System, the so-called Gentleman’s agreement.  I would like to think in the end true Honor and those who follow the rules will weed out the people that can’t follow the rules, Call me naïve

As to what is a racer I want to relate a story so please forgive me 

Every year in the city where I work they run a 5k race.  I have had the great honor to lead out the lead racers and just about every year most of the lead runners are some of the fastest runners in are area and in the country and are from high school, and college with some being Olympic qualifiers.   After the start gun is fired they run the race at a blistering pace, after getting them safely through the course and back across the finish line I go back out on the course to bring in the last person.    As the race does not limit itself to Olympic caliber runners only I also interact with the families out on a stroll, but this year I found a very different person in the red lantern position, we spent the next two hours finishing the race. I learned a lot from him. He had worked with a doctor for over a year to do this race and in the process lost an amount of body wait that I cannot to this day comprehend along with fighting other health issues.  But on the day of the race he ponied up to the start like any other racer and took off.  We kept moving along the race route following the rules and at times I did not think he was going to make it.  I kept giving updates on our position to the race officials as the race was well past the posted ending. 

When we rounded the last corner and could see the finish line I noticed that they had not removed the finish line and there was a large welcoming committee to include the runner who had won the race waiting for him.   To see the smile on his face is something I will never forget as I peeled away to let him have his moment of glory all I could think of that was a race. This was his Great Divide Race and my definition at to what a racer is was forever changed

 When you line up at the Grand depart either  from the north end or the south end we all want to be racers and weather we are the Olympic racer or that person who decided life was to short not to take the adventure, who is to say that person is not a racer.  We all want to be the best but what I learned on this day is the person who finishes first is not always the one who showed the most courage or fortitude sometimes its that person who against all odds lined up to the start and raced his race, followed the rules and took satisfaction on coming across the finish line.


 

[sheilar]

Ok. So here's what I don't get after seven pages of bickering:

Why is it so hard to follow rules?

We didn't have issues following the rules of 4-square when we were all in 2nd grade. Why now?

The rules are there to set a level playing field, whether you're at the front of the pack or at the back. Sure, if you're going for a record, everyone expects you to follow the rules. Hell, I passed up an elk steak by Brooks Lake Lodge during TD 2012 for the sake of self-support. But people mid-pack are racing too, and I'd be sure as hell pissed if I were out there trying my hardest and following the rules and someone else rode up next to me and said, 'I'm racing TD too, but I just got some sweet fried chicken from knocking on a door back there, and oh yeah, that muddy section you slogged through, I just went around.' I don't think mid-packers should be held to any lower of a standard then the Jefes and Mike Halls of the world.

A race is a race is a race, and under current rules, Tour Divide is a race. This can be changed, but as of right now, it's an event with rules that by signing up, people are agreeing to.

People get relegated during the CTR for missing a stupid little 3-mile section of Jerosa (sp?) Mesa every year. No one complains. They missed the section. Watching TD this year, people were blatantly skipping sections. Standards lowered? Expectations lowered? I hope not.

Yes, TD is a test against self more than any one else, but what does it say about the event/race that when the going gets tough, it's totally acceptable to bail out and take the easy option? I don't think, long-term, that that's what people are looking for. We race because we want to be challenged and we want to be held accountable by our peers. That's not happening right now.

Just my 2 cents after racing TD/CTR/AZT etc.

Yep.