The Spirit of the Tour Divide

[the tortoise]

Toby, I don't know why Scott hasn't had you and Mark volunteer as enforcers? That would take the pressure off him and instead of ranting on endlessly about the "violators" you could actually do something about it! It really shouldn't take too much time. Just see who has cut the course and immediately turn their status into tourers. I wouldn't even worry too much about begging or buying from a "non licensed" vendor since that would be so hard to prove.

But in my mind to make it even more pure, no staying in hotels or riding with other competitors.

And when people look back at the "good old days" which in reality are only a few years ago and say those people were so much more honorable than today's strikes me as preposterous. With more people come more eyes and more accusations.

[Done]

Toby, I don't know why Scott hasn't had you and Mark volunteer as enforcers?

I don't think that enforcement is really the solution. Why? Because almost everything about these races is unenforceable. What I want is for people to accept the challenge of the race as it was defined. Which means committing to the spirit, structure, and rules of the event, instead of deciding that "simple" rules and lack of enforcement means that whatever goes.

And when people look back at the "good old days" which in reality are only a few years ago and say those people were so much more honorable than today's strikes me as preposterous. With more people come more eyes and more accusations.

Do you think that Matthew Lee drafted? Do you think that Stamstead rode around tough sections? Do you think that Stefan begged food? Do you think that Mike stashed water?

The evidence is very clear that many riders are not following the rules as they were defined by the founders of this sport. Of course this doesn't mean that everyone is cheating. But think that it's clear by the posts in this thread indicate that a lot of people view "few rules" as essentially the same as "optional rules."

[the tortoise]

I don't think that enforcement is really the solution. Why? Because almost everything about these races is unenforceable. What I want is for people to accept the challenge of the race as it was defined. Which means committing to the spirit, structure, and rules of the event, instead of deciding that "simple" rules and lack of enforcement means that whatever goes.
Do you think that Matthew Lee drafted? Do you think that Stamstead rode around tough sections? Do you think that Stefan begged food? Do you think that Mike stashed water?

The evidence is very clear that many riders are not following the rules as they were defined by the founders of this sport. Of course this doesn't mean that everyone is cheating. But think that it's clear by the posts in this thread indicate that a lot of people view "few rules" as essentially the same as "optional rules."

Ya don't enforce anything just constantly whine year after year about it. I guess that wouldn't work now would it? There goes all your material! As far as did they cheat or bend the rules? I don't know I wasn't there. Have fun with the next 20 pages of this thread.

[Done]

Ya don't enforce anything just constantly whine year after year about it. I guess that wouldn't work now would it? There goes all your material! As far as did they cheat or bend the rules? I don't know I wasn't there. Have fun with the next 20 pages of this thread.

I wish that you didn't feel the need for personal attacks.

[tanman1337]

All I got to say is until you do the race (Toby) shut the fuck up. You'll ruin it for everyone! Its more than u can comprehend!

[tanman1337]

Seems like many people don't enjoy your constant whining...might want to just lead by example rather than speaking so much

[Hadfield]

I personally don't feel that you should be allowed to race if you are sponsored. IMHO. Richard

[Hadfield]

In the end, who cares if some want to cheat. They are only cheating themselves.

[Eszter]

Do you think that Matthew Lee drafted? Do you think that Stamstead rode around tough sections? Do you think that Stefan begged food? Do you think that Mike stashed water?

The evidence is very clear that many riders are not following the rules as they were defined by the founders of this sport. Of course this doesn't mean that everyone is cheating. But think that it's clear by the posts in this thread indicate that a lot of people view "few rules" as essentially the same as "optional rules."

I think it's important that we don't treat the founders of our sport like gods. They had screw ups, the same way this generation of riders has screw ups, the same way that all athletes for the rest of time will have screw ups. They had good ideas. They had bad ideas. Just because they said it, doesn't mean that it's right, or applicable to the current racing climate/situation.

They were dealing with a very different group mentality with tiny fields where everyone knew everyone else. These days, when you show up to the start of TD (or CTR or AZT), you'd be lucky to know 10% of the field. When there were six people out there and they all cared what each other thought, yes, it was easy to self-regulate.

If some random person saw you drafting/cutting the course/taking outside assistance, would you care as much as if a friend/respected peer in the race saw you doing it? It's a different mentality out there and it's how we choose to deal with it that will define where bikepacking racing will go. Do we stick to their (occasionally) stupidly high ideals on one end, or do we make it a free-for-all on the other end of the spectrum.

In the end, neither Scott, nor Matthew, nor Stefan, nor the other dozen race directors really will choose the outcome. The community will. And that's a blessing and a curse.

[Eszter]

And Stamstead did ride around the tough/muddy sections, as seen by the allowed detours in NM. He skipped some of the most beautiful parts of the route, sadly.

[the tortoise]

As a ride and race director I would like to put some perspective on it.
Everyone who competes at our events knows that I make the final decisions. Everyone goes home happy and shares some good times over it. I only had one instance where I had to make a decision to DQ a rider. I Didn't like to do it and even tried to get the racers to work it out but they couldn't agree so I had to make the decision. Everyone except for one person went home happy that year.
These bikepacking races and racers deserve more than people airing a bunch of accusations year after year.
Brendan Collier with the Stagecoach 400 doesn't have the same problem because he decides the final outcome. Want to put your name to a race, not only make up the rules but put out final standings and DQ people if you have to. No arguments and everyone (mostly) goes home happy. That way one or two whiners don't destroy it all year for everyone else.

[Done]

Seems like many people don't enjoy your constant whining...might want to just lead by example rather than speaking so much

Yeah, I do lead by example. Which is why I treat people with respect--even when I disagree with them. Yes, that even includes you!

Now can we move on? Thanks.

[Done]

I think it's important that we don't treat the founders of our sport like gods. They had screw ups, the same way this generation of riders has screw ups, the same way that all athletes for the rest of time will have screw ups. They had good ideas. They had bad ideas. Just because they said it, doesn't mean that it's right, or applicable to the current racing climate/situation.

I realize that they weren't gods. But they defined an amazing sport, for which they deserve a great deal of respect. And they set some pretty damn high standards, imperfections and all.

[Marshal]

getting caught up--I see things broke down a bit when the ‘enforcement’ and proposed ‘rule change’ stuff came up.

But if we circle back and re-float an earlier trial balloon--it seems most agree there could be some level of benefit from more effective ‘pre-race’ efforts at getting racers up to speed on the current rule set?

Personally I like the notion of spending a bit more energy working towards improved rule adherence “pre-race”.  Certainly won’t solve all the rule issues but might reduce the 'post-race' complications just a bit, anyway I see no harm or huge controversy here? 

Specifically:
1.   I think Scott mentioned a rules educational FAQ sticky?
2.   As was mentioned in several posts--Perhaps some form of written commitment in one’s intent letter to essentially agree to abide by that event’s published/current rule set?
3.   Maybe a simple ‘rules have been read’ check-off box on sign up page or Spot agreement?

Any 'on topic' comments about pre-race effort at education, sign-off , other? ? ?

[Jilleo]

I think, to some extent, the Tour Divide has suffered from a lack of centralized record-keeping over the past few years. The tourdivide.org Web site still exists, but from an outsider's perspective it looks like a dead site, and with the exception of changing the date on the home page. Are people who line up for the start even looking at this page? Do they even know the basic tenants of self-supported bikepacking? The importance of following a precise course? Do they bother to read the rules? Or did they learn about the Tour Divide from other media, find out more on this forum (or elsewhere), and show up in Banff with their own ideas of what the Tour Divide is, followed by surprise when they're called out for a very basic rule violation, like going around an entire pass on pavement.

The problem is, how do you centralize the operations of a race without a race director? The whole free-for-all thing can work. Look at the community of Fastest Known Times, which is organized in a proboard forum run by Peter Balkwin. The "read this first" sticky at the top of the page is key. http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/thread/19/read-first. Therein one interested in pursuing a fastest known time learns about the basic tenants of supported, self-supported, unsupported, and how to go about declaring and recording their effort. People can go on the forum and ask specific questions about style and routes. The FKT community is pretty good at policing itself. Might the Tour Divide benefit from its own forum more prominently displayed on bikepacking.net? One with multiple threads for issues and questions that aren't buried in 200 pages of a thread called "Tour Divide 2014." Does it deserve such a thing? I suppose that's a question for the community and for Scott.

[the tortoise]

One final post then I am done!

I am willing to step up to the plate and make official finishes happen. This would be for the grand depart only That way they can be published in the Cordillera.

Send a LOI (letter of intent) with a signature stating that you will comply by the rules of the Tour Divide. This can be done by mail or by e-mailing a copy to me.

I will try to get some volunteers to be spot stalkers. If your spot fails at any point (particularly near a tough section) you will have to send a copy of your gps route for verification.

At least 3 complaints of a person seriously bending the rules (from different racers) are required before anyone is DQ'ed for anything other than cutting the course. (no roving taco stand snitching!)

Of course if people just want to be part of the fun and not be counted no need to sign up.

I will do this if Scott, Matt and Chris are in agreement.

All I ask is for one free entry into the TD again some year!

[ScottM]

It's OK Rich -- thanks for the offer but ultimately those offering the challenge of the race(s) need to own and do the 'enforcing.'  I've been lucky and haven't had to deal with nearly the issues that TD has, but there have still been some tricky ones in the past.  You can still have the free entry!

I think Jill is correct that a website that is not updated does not command much influence.  I can see people not taking it as seriously as they should.  I think the TD site needs to be trimmed down into something more sustainable... and of course, publish results.  I don't know if Matthew re-enforced rules and reading of the site in pre-race emails that went out -- I didn't get them this year.  But that has been one way to get the word out and let people know there's still some people and care behind the site and race itself.

It's been suggested elsewhere that TD get its own forum here.  I think the idea is growing on me.  One giant thread isn't all that useful, and some stickies could be made for a few key topics, such as rules and "why does the TD site seem dead?"  Plus to some bikepackers TD is a great insult to their sensibilities, so they'd rather not even see mention of it.

[ABfolder]

I think it's important that we don't treat the founders of our sport like gods. They had screw ups, the same way this generation of riders has screw ups, the same way that all athletes for the rest of time will have screw ups. They had good ideas. They had bad ideas. Just because they said it, doesn't mean that it's right, or applicable to the current racing climate/situation.

Something I haven't seen mentioned in any discussion of the "Spirit of the Tour Divide" is the use/over-use of stimulants to assist riders. I find it rather strange when nitpickers are bringing up subjects like drafting and other assistance rules "Advancing (forward) on the route by any means other than one's own pedal power is strictly prohibited. No drafting. Use of any type of air scoop or umbrella sail intended to harness wind power is also prohibited." yet looking the other way when bags of pills are packed in kits. I have to say I was a little taken aback when I watched Ride the Divide and saw Mike Dion's stash of blue pills. In a recent photo layout in Outside magazine with someone's kit laid out, a bag of (caffeine??) pills is clearly seen. Constant Red Bull? 5 hour energy drinks? Caffeine pills? Why don't I see those on anyone's gear list? They appear to be essentials nowadays. Is that the elephant in the room that no one likes to talk about?

[richpips]

It's been suggested elsewhere that TD get its own forum here.  I think the idea is growing on me.  One giant thread isn't all that useful, and some stickies could be made for a few key topics, such as rules and "why does the TD site seem dead?"  Plus to some bikepackers TD is a great insult to their sensibilities, so they'd rather not even see mention of it.

Good idea.

[Marshal]

Something I haven't seen mentioned in any discussion of the "Spirit of the Tour Divide" is the use/over-use of stimulants to assist riders. I find it rather strange when nitpickers are bringing up subjects like drafting and other assistance rules "Advancing (forward) on the route by any means other than one's own pedal power is strictly prohibited. No drafting. Use of any type of air scoop or umbrella sail intended to harness wind power is also prohibited." yet looking the other way when bags of pills are packed in kits. I have to say I was a little taken aback when I watched Ride the Divide and saw Mike Dion's stash of blue pills. In a recent photo layout in Outside magazine with someone's kit laid out, a bag of (caffeine??) pills is clearly seen. Constant Red Bull? 5 hour energy drinks? Caffeine pills? Why don't I see those on anyone's gear list? They appear to be essentials nowadays. Is that the elephant in the room that no one likes to talk about?

My typical drug use, in descending order of use or importance

Caffeine
•   Pepsi (many times in a bladder with ice)
•   Red Bull (1 or 2 per day--at resupply stops)
•   Pills (several times in a typical multi day)
Aleve (varies from 1-3 per day to none)
Orajel (as saddle sore develop usage goes up)

It’s questionable how much impact they have on my performance but the impact is real.