The Spirit of the Tour Divide

[Eszter]

(Albeit, a pretty typical BP.net thread- good conversation-great counter points- fuck you Toby- good conversation- great counter points- fuck you Toby....and around we go!)

This made me laugh so hard. Thanks for that!

[Flinch]

..and while we're on the drug topic...

I say ban Powerbars - they're converted into sugars and later other performance enhancing chemicals in the body - even tho they taste like baby poo! But Cliff Bars are OK!

Going up Union Pass I clearly remember bonking, and after gobbling down a bar or two, refreshed but in shame, I felt like a new rider. So now I relegate myself...er wait, I was touring - woops.

Suggest a rule modification:
" Racers must not eat or drink along the route, nor breathe, and shall hold their wee-wee the entire way." 

Chill people...be happy we can still peddle. 

Glen

[ABfolder]

..and while we're on the drug topic...
...be happy we can still peddle. 

Glen

Peddle drugs? Or pedal bikes? 

[Flinch]

Bikes - bikes!

However, I do hope my performance enhancing laxatives are not banned. 

[FoldsInHalf]

Hi folks, I'm no racer, but am a keen follower of these things and have just read this whole darn thread, so somebody give me a trophy, ha!  

There was a lot of unfortunate BS in this thread, but also a lot of thoughtful discussion, some of which gave me an idea that may be worth developing...

This idea was inspired by thoughts of another sport: GOLF.

Like bikepack racing, golf seems to have just a few simple rules.  But in practice, there are many situations where gray areas arise, and players have a wide range of attitudes about how to handle those.

Some mortal golfers bend rules (either unknowingly or because it just seems no big deal), while others (like me) are happy to outright break or ignore rules (e.g. mulligans) because we're lousy golfers and don't really care about the integrity of our scores.

Yet, everybody nonetheless records scores and compares results with buddies, and as long as your peers hold similar views about how closely the rules are to be followed, it all somehow works out fine, even in charity tournaments and such.

Which leads to my idea...

After a round, one of the rules of golf says each player is supposed to review their own scorecard and SIGN IT, thereby self-certifying it to be accurate and that they obeyed all the rules of golf to claim that score.

Of course most mortals don't sign anything and just quickly add up the numbers, see who won, and go brag over beers about what a great round they had (nevermind that mulligan on hole 6, the ball nudged away from a rock on hole 13, etc).  Serious players doublecheck their sums and reflect on any unusual actions during the round, knowing that if they do sign a bogus scorecard, they'll be in trouble with their peers or an event organizer if somebody notices.

So, how about implementing a similar system for the TDR??

After the event, each finisher could receive an email saying something like:


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Congratulations on finishing the Tour Divide route between Banff and Antelope Wells.  Reaching the end is an incredible accomplishment and you should be proud!

By default, your name and elapsed time will be published along with the other finishers of this year's Tour Divide route, sorted alphabetically but without any ranking.

If you believe that you STRICTLY obeyed all rules of the self-supported Tour Divide Race throughout your ride, and therefore deserve to be included in the separate, RANKED list of official RACE results, please initial each of the following boxes, sign below, and return:


[ ] 1. I covered the entire race route with absolutely no skipped sections (however inconsequential or unintentional), except for explicitly announced alternates.

[ ] 2. I never made any forward progress along the route at any time for any reason, except under my own power with my bicycle.

[ ] 3. I did not draft anyone at any time, for any reason; nor did I take advantage of any devices such as sails, parachutes, tractor beams, etc.

[ ] 4. I used only commercial services available to all racers, and never called ahead or otherwise pre-arranged anything, during or before the event.

[ ] 5. I received zero physical support from friends, family, fellow competitors, or private individuals (e.g. anyone met along the way acting in a non-commercial capacity), whether such might seem advantageous or not, EXCEPT for bona-fide "trail magic".  Since this is inherently a nebulous concept, I attest that I at least read and understood the FAQ (which covers numerous sample situations) and am confident enough in my actions during the race to publicly disclose and discuss with the bikepack racing community any aid I would claim as "trail magic".

[ ] 6. (any other major concepts I am forgetting)


By signing below, I self-certify that I followed all the rules of this race (not limited to, but summarized above), and therefore should be publicly ranked based on my finishing time of XX days, XX hrs, XX min, XX sec.

SIGN HERE:  ______________________________

Note that if you cannot honestly and confidently claim strict adherence to the rules, that's okay, but please refrain from signing this, out of respect for fellow competitors and race observers, many of whom care deeply about the integrity of this uniquely "self policed" race.

If you did not strictly follow the rules yet sign this anyway, you will just have to live with the knowledge that you essentially cheated (in a race with no prizes!) to achieve a hollow ranking.

It does not matter how little YOU think your rule transgressions matter, please, just don't sign, and instead simply revel in finishing the event on your own terms.  We further encourage you to share the details online about why you could not quite claim a strict race finish this year with the bikepacking community, and assure you that your peers will respect your honesty and appreciate your insights.


--------------------------------------------------------------------


I think something like this would rather elegantly address the concerns of all kinds of entrants.  The "do whatever" crowd would still have their efforts publicly documented without feeling the sting of that dirty word "relegated" (which isn't actually all that bad, but does sure sound bad); while serious competitors would then be self-certified and cleanly rank-able, in the original intent of the sport.

Anyone who knows in their heart they didn't race cleanly, but still submits a signed form to ML afterwards (i.e. is willing to outright lie to GOD!) is just incorrigible and needn't be worried about much... they'll either get away with it in silence (and then who cares--there's no prizes at stake), or, they'll be called out when the rankings are revealed and potentially humiliated by the community for knowingly submitting a bogus scorecard (assuming they can't defend their actions).

Also, I'd say to make the contents of what will be in the certification letter known in advance, but don't have anyone sign it in advance.  Any signing would only be done afterwards.  This would set everyone's expectations beforehand, then gracefully handle both possible failure cases: where someone hoped to be a 100% strict competitor but things but didn't quite work out; and the case where someone only ever intended to be, say, 95% strict and doesn't really care about their ranking, but mainly wanted to be part of the big event, which I suspect covers a majority of the entrants these days.  (Yes, such folks really should just "tour" the thing on their own, but that's clearly not nearly as compelling an undertaking so they will need to be handled, and this would handle them very nicely).

Obviously, all this is not really meant to be used verbatim, but hopefully is seeds of a concept worth refining... so... discuss and refine.  

[Marshal]

Hi folks, I'm no racer, but am a keen follower of these things and have just read this whole darn thread, so somebody give me a trophy, ha! 

There was a lot of unfortunate BS in this thread, but also a lot of thoughtful discussion, some of which gave me an idea that may be worth developing...

This idea was inspired by thoughts of another sport: GOLF.

Like bikepack racing, golf seems to have just a few simple rules.  But in practice, there are many situations where gray areas arise, and players have a wide range of attitudes about how to handle those.

Some mortal golfers bend rules (either unknowingly or because it just seems no big deal), while others (like me) are happy to outright break or ignore rules (e.g. mulligans) because we're lousy golfers and don't really care about the integrity of our scores.

Yet, everybody nonetheless records scores and compares results with buddies, and as long as your peers hold similar views about how closely the rules are to be followed, it all somehow works out fine, even in charity tournaments and such.

Which leads to my idea...

After a round, one of the rules of golf says each player is supposed to review their own scorecard and SIGN IT, thereby self-certifying it to be accurate and that they obeyed all the rules of golf to claim that score.

Of course most mortals don't sign anything and just quickly add up the numbers, see who won, and go brag over beers about what a great round they had (nevermind that mulligan on hole 6, the ball nudged away from a rock on hole 13, etc).  Serious players doublecheck their sums and reflect on any unusual actions during the round, knowing that if they do sign a bogus scorecard, they'll be in trouble with their peers or an event organizer if somebody notices.

So, how about implementing a similar system for the TDR??

After the event, each finisher could receive an email saying something like:


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Congratulations on finishing the Tour Divide route between Banff and Antelope Wells.  Reaching the end is an incredible accomplishment and you should be proud!

By default, your name and elapsed time will be published along with the other finishers of this year's Tour Divide route, sorted alphabetically but without any ranking.

If you believe that you STRICTLY obeyed all rules of the self-supported Tour Divide Race throughout your ride, and therefore deserve to be included in the separate, RANKED list of official RACE results, please initial each of the following boxes, sign below, and return:


[ ] 1. I covered the entire race route with absolutely no skipped sections (however inconsequential or unintentional), except for explicitly announced alternates.

[ ] 2. I never made any forward progress along the route at any time for any reason, except under my own power with my bicycle.

[ ] 3. I did not draft anyone at any time, for any reason; nor did I take advantage of any devices such as sails, parachutes, tractor beams, etc.

[ ] 4. I used only commercial services available to all racers, and never called ahead or otherwise pre-arranged anything, during or before the event.

[ ] 5. I received zero physical support from friends, family, fellow competitors, or private individuals (e.g. anyone met along the way acting in a non-commercial capacity), whether such might seem advantageous or not, EXCEPT for bona-fide "trail magic".  Since this is inherently a nebulous concept, I attest that I at least read and understood the FAQ (which covers numerous sample situations) and am confident enough in my actions during the race to publicly disclose and discuss with the bikepack racing community any aid I would claim as "trail magic".

[ ] 6. (any other major concepts I am forgetting)


By signing below, I self-certify that I followed all the rules of this race (not limited to, but summarized above), and therefore should be publicly ranked based on my finishing time of XX days, XX hrs, XX min, XX sec.

SIGN HERE:  ______________________________

Note that if you cannot honestly and confidently claim strict adherence to the rules, that's okay, but please refrain from signing this, out of respect for fellow competitors and race observers, many of whom care deeply about the integrity of this uniquely "self policed" race.

If you did not strictly follow the rules yet sign this anyway, you will just have to live with the knowledge that you essentially cheated (in a race with no prizes!) to achieve a hollow ranking.

It does not matter how little YOU think your rule transgressions matter, please, just don't sign, and instead simply revel in finishing the event on your own terms.  We further encourage you to share the details online about why you could not quite claim a strict race finish this year with the bikepacking community, and assure you that your peers will respect your honesty and appreciate your insights.


--------------------------------------------------------------------


I think something like this would rather elegantly address the concerns of all kinds of entrants.  The "do whatever" crowd would still have their efforts publicly documented without feeling the sting of that dirty word "relegated" (which isn't actually all that bad, but does sure sound bad); while serious competitors would then be self-certified and cleanly rank-able, in the original intent of the sport.

Anyone who knows in their heart they didn't race cleanly, but still submits a signed form to ML afterwards (i.e. is willing to outright lie to GOD!) is just incorrigible and needn't be worried about much... they'll either get away with it in silence (and then who cares--there's no prizes at stake), or, they'll be called out when the rankings are revealed and potentially humiliated by the community for knowingly submitting a bogus scorecard (assuming they can't defend their actions).

Also, I'd say to make the contents of what will be in the certification letter known in advance, but don't have anyone sign it in advance.  Any signing would only be done afterwards.  This would set everyone's expectations beforehand, then gracefully handle both possible failure cases: where someone hoped to be a 100% strict competitor but things but didn't quite work out; and the case where someone only ever intended to be, say, 95% strict and doesn't really care about their ranking, but mainly wanted to be part of the big event, which I suspect covers a majority of the entrants these days.  (Yes, such folks really should just "tour" the thing on their own, but that's clearly not nearly as compelling an undertaking so they will need to be handled, and this would handle them very nicely).

Obviously, all this is not really meant to be used verbatim, but hopefully is seeds of a concept worth refining... so... discuss and refine. 

Strikes me as a very valid concept worth thinking about.  Of course ML would need to both embrace and promote it.  But I would be willing to sign and submit a finish card of some type for inclusion in a published/recognized results list.

ML would also need to re-write/refine it to more concisely match his actual TDR rules as I believe there are several minor inaccuracies as currently written.  Which just illustrates how easy it is to either see or create gray when it comes to rule sets.

And I am not sure why you couldn't also use this 'signed finish card' concept to both promote and acknowledge honorable self regulations.

[afie]

I think you are all missing the point.

In 2007 I expressed my disappointment that Mike Curiak imposed rules on entrants that he would not support if they experienced trouble. He legally formalised rules and regulations for an event without covering himself against litigation. It is no surprise that Matt has not painted himself into this corner, but there is something deeper to it than that.

If you want to keep the self-sufficient ethos of this event, you all need to back away and ask yourselves what you got out of it. If you have completed the trail and the best part of it all was winning that year, setting a record or telling others of your accomplishment, you should go and do it again.

As entrant numbers increase, as rules and compliance increases, as the population along the route becomes more aware of riders, as more information about setups, preparation and the route is shared, the trail becomes sanitised from adventure. I seek my Divide experience again, but it will not be found in familiar territory.

It is my hope that the TourDivide event withers and dies. It will continue to provide inspiration to those willing to race or tour the trail for their own comparison, and to those who seek adventure in local or foreign lands, but there is no improvement from its current form. Success on the Divide needs to be measured in experience gained, not as a finishing time, not as a badge to wear - I come here to read the stories and see the photos of riders, there doesn't need to be an event to do that.

[JRA]

Totally different event...but this is the direction the organizers of The Oregon Outback have decided to go for 2015:

"Only this time we’re taking an even more hands off approach (is that even possible?!) and taking no part in any sign up, registration, email updates, etc.  You want to ride?  Show up and ride.   It’s as simple as that."

http://velodirt.com/the-oregon-outback-2015-ed/

[ScottM]

Yeah, when your event is accessible enough that 300-400 people jump on it in the first year (!), it kinda makes sense to take it even more 'hands off.'

FoldsinHalf has a good idea and one that Matthew has already implemented to some extent.  I was hoping a recent TD finisher would chime in on it.  I know TD has been collecting signed honorable finishes for 1 or 2 years.  I like the idea, and may adopt it for the AZT in the future, but so far haven't needed it.

I can't remember if it's mentioned here or not, but Matthew has promised to back-fill TD results through 2011.  I believe that's buried somewhere in 2014's race discussion thread.

[Dillon]

This thread has meandered a bit.  My two bits is that getting more complicated is not necessary when people are SPOT tracked and deviations can be seen by anyone.  I would suggest a two category race and stop there.  Category one is the people at the GD or ITT who are serious about staying on course and meeting all challenges.  I believe that is the initial intent of the race.  Category two are those who want to share the camaraderie but have no hope of being competitive. I would say call that a steeplechase, where they know the start and the end but the course isn't so strict.  They are those, like me, who are racing against themselves and their private demons but should not be rated with the people in the GD, ITT category.  Give them both different colors with the knowledge that they are in different races happening at the same time. That's it, (GD or ITT) and ST.  One with strict rules, the other aiming to get as close as they can.   
 If they started a day apart it would take some pressure off accommodations on the northern stretches of the route.  I speak as a slower rider who absolutely should not be racing but I can't stop trying. The original steeplechases were races across country overcoming obstacles.  I would happily wear that on my sleeve and be proud of it while not stealing a meal or bicycle parts from someone who considers the stated rules as absolute obligations.
  If there are too many rules someone will have to be in charge of it. Then lawsuits and Parks Canada Fees will not be far behind. It would be unfortunate if this event choked on its own success.
 

[james-o]

"Category two are those who want to share the camaraderie but have no hope of being competitive. I would say call that a steeplechase, where they know the start and the end but the course isn't so strict.  They are those, like me, who are racing against themselves and their private demons but should not be rated with the people in the GD, ITT category."

What you're suggesting is an alternative event really, which would be cool. I'd ride it. Turn up and tour with a group, see who you end up riding with, tour alone for a day or 2, regroup etc. More fun than weeks alone and all the discomfort of committed race pace, plus the chance to explore some side trails or towns. But it's not the TDR, if it became part of it it would be a dilution. Riding without adherence to the course, rules etc and truly pushing yourself can wait for another day, perhaps better make a little space for those who are all-out for 20 days and set off at a different time, more than a day's space anyway. No disrespect meant here, I like to tour fast and it gets hard at times. But you're either racing or you're not (and that is independent of actual time taken, it's about your attitude).

"It would be unfortunate if this event choked on its own success." Exactly - keeping the expectations high is what keeps numbers at the GD lower, or the commitment of the entrants high. (aware that even 75 is a lot compared to where it started and 150 may be there in 2015?)

[dskunk]

I’d like to add my support of a ranked list of finishers after the event is complete along with a complete list of all those who started the event ( FoldsInHalf's idea ) . My belief is that all those who send in a letter of intent are committing to a race and deserve to be included in a results list. It is also my belief that not all of those who start are able to hold to those commitments. I think that part of the race should be a completion declaration stating that the competitor did or did not manage to hold to the race rules, or that they had to withdraw at some point. The easiest way to do that would be a form letter sent to each competitor upon their completion of the race reminding them of the rules and giving them an easy way to declare whether or not they managed to stay in the race. There are grey areas in the rules admittedly, but really the best you can do is rely on each competitor’s integrity and conscience (and it seems to me that that is how the race was run in the beginning too). Having a list of ranked finishers within a list of those who committed to the race (with their results too) merely highlights how hard the race can be and does not detract from the achievement of any.
My (Dave Stowe, TD2014, GD, Southbound) race declaration:  I reached Antelope Wells in 22 days 6 hours and some minutes (‘bout the same time as Alice D.) I cannot be ranked as I missed two sections of the course, 1) Gold Dust,  due to navigational error, and 2) the CDT alternate, due to bad judgment and a mistaken belief that trail closed meant trail closed.
Which is ok ‘cause I’ll be back to be ranked in 2016.
Cheers, Dave

[MikeI]

I don't think that missing a portion of the CDT due to that big giant yellow closed sign should be a reason for anyone relegating. 

You're out there in the middle of nowhere more or less, the cell phone doesn't work and this very official yellow sign says the trail is closed !   Some of the top folks ignored the sign and did the CDT, and you could see from trackleaders, that others got to it, must have seen the sign and then turned around and took pavement.   Then you throw in the wrinkles due to daily changing mandatory fire reroutes in the Santa Fe forest and it becomes pretty complicated ...  just to judge how well people followed the route. 
 

[SlowRide]

I don't think that missing a portion of the CDT due to that big giant yellow closed sign should be a reason for anyone relegating.

Matthew Lee sent emails to all riders in advance as they approached the CDT alternate to notify them of the sign and that it was open and to ride it.

Here's what Matthew sent me and the other riders I was with at the time a couple days in advance:

"CDT Sapillo section open to TD riders
Attn: Just N. of Silver City

There is a trail closed sign at the trailhead, but it applies to the segment beyond the Sapillo. You are clear to pass. No camping in there, though."

[dskunk]

Well. In my case it is a bit of a moot point 'cause I missed Gold Dust too and that was solely because I messed up.
The CDT is just one of those grey areas I guess. Emails aren't going to reach everyone ( I didn't have a cell phone, I was riding alone at that point, and I believe I was probably pretty close to the CDT when the email went out anyway). But there was also apparently a bulletin board somewhere near the entrance to the campground that described the closure in detail. Shrug.
I guess it's one of those situations ( almost like a fire reroute) where the best thing to do, after the fact, is to declare that you missed a section and see whether it was allowable or not.
Cheers, Dave

[dream4est]

Just race with honor in these triple crown events or go friggin tour. Like really tour it up and post a blog with cartoon caricatures of yourselves and cool, edgy dialogue.

2 classes is not what this is about. I dont even want age groups and the pros concept either. I like to know how I stack up against the best. The best that show up that is. 

[BobM]

Matthew Lee sent emails to all riders in advance as they approached the CDT alternate to notify them of the sign and that it was open and to ride it.

Here's what Matthew sent me and the other riders I was with at the time a couple days in advance:

"CDT Sapillo section open to TD riders
Attn: Just N. of Silver City

There is a trail closed sign at the trailhead, but it applies to the segment beyond the Sapillo. You are clear to pass. No camping in there, though."

How do you send an email to a guy on a bike in the middle of the route?  Not everyone (I hope) is carrying a smart phone or is stopping to check email.

[SlowRide]

How do you send an email to a guy on a bike in the middle of the route?  Not everyone (I hope) is carrying a smart phone or is stopping to check email.

A couple of things to say on this.

1.) This is a race, and knowing about fire detours, or anything else that comes up en-route is the racers responsibility. It's not "once you pull off of the starting line do whatever you like," that's exactly what this thread is about, isn't it? Being un-contactable is a choice, and it's a choice that might cost you dearly if something like this comes up. In my opinion it is the racers duty and responsibility to keep up with developments in the race they are participating in. That sign on the campground was not that many miles from the first services on the alternate paved route, civilization was not impossibly far away in this instance.

2.) I talked to numerous riders that received direct text messages from and made direct phone calls to Matthew Lee en-route and received instructions they needed back. He is available for questions from what I know from those who are carrying cell phones or can find a public phone or public internet.

3.) For some without cell phones Matthew Lee has been known to go so far as to call ahead of riders to a gas station or store and have the attendant flag down an un-contactable rider to make sure they get the info they need about re-routes, etc. I heard a direct account of a situation where a racer pulled in to a nowhere town bewildered and a clerk came running out telling him he had a phone call from Matthew Lee waiting inside, this was from a top racer.

There's no "rule" on this as far as I know, so this is just my opinion, and a starting point for discussion if anyone's opinions differ.

[wickerer]

Yes, Matthew does a great job in keeping racers up to date about route changes but sometimes it just won't work. Cellphone coverage is spotty along the route and we can  not expect Matthew to call all the gas stations ahead for every rider. One example is the closure of the fire reroute in the Gila in 2013 after half of the field went through it. I was lucky to receive a mail from Matthew shortly before I left Grants with no cell connection before Silver City. Others did not receive his mail and took the reroute. Nobody was relegated because of this, because they took their responsibility to decide on their own which way is best according to the rules of the race.

This also applies for the riders who hit the trail closure sign at Sapillo campground in 2014. Some just ignored it and headed on through. Others went around it because they didn't receive Matthew's mail. Nobody should be relegated for that. In 2013 we had a trail closure south of Abiquiu. Ignoring the sign would have brought us in serious trouble (the only one to pass through this section was Billy Rice with a special permit of the responsible authorities).

What I want to say is that in cases like these there might be more than one 'correct' way. It's up to us to decide if our way is in line with the spirit of the Tour Divide. No one (and no rules) can take this responsibility away from us.

[kato]

I almost feel bad reviving this thread.  However, I know that previous to my initial TD attempt last year I read through the pages and pages of discussion about the TD "rules".  Threads just like this one.  I recall thinking that there were a lot of angry bikepacking racers and a lot of armchair speculators/judges.  It all just sort of oozed together into an uneasy feeling about my cycling passion.  Cycling is great.  The Great Divide is grand.  The Tour Divide is a race.

"The Tour Divide challenge is based on one guiding principle: Cycle the GDMBR end-to-end, as fast as possible in a solo, self-supported fashion."  This is copied from the Rules section of the Tour Divide Website.  There are other particulars listed as well but this is the main rule(s).  It's easy to dissect this statement into numerous sub-points and exceptions.  We need to keep the main thing the main thing.  It's easy to microscopically ponder every judgement of every rider in a bike packing race while watching their spots and come to no clear consensus as to whether or not there was a rules infraction.  If we just keep it simple I think it is simple.  Do it alone, as fast as you can while actually following the race route.

From the start list last year, this year and probably any other recent year it's easy to see that either some folks aren't understanding the one guiding principle of the TD or don't know it exists.  Or they are just willing to ignore the main spirit of the race.  The TD is the Tour Divide.  It's a race.  The Great Divide Mountain Bike Route is a route that can be toured at any time.  It's a route closely followed by the Tour Divide.  However you choose to do it it is awesome.  It's a beautiful thing.  Simple.  Just ride and enjoy.  The rules of the Tour Divide are also simple.  Touring and racing are two totally different things.  Neither is better.  Perhaps one is more fun.  One can definitely be enjoyed with family and friends at whatever pace you choose.  The other can not.  The start list and letter of intentions are for challengers of the Tour Divide, the race.  The Adventure Cycling Association keeps an honorary log of all people who have completed the Great Divide cycling route as a tour.

Touring the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route is a true accomplishment that can be shared with your loved ones.  The Tour Divide is a challenge to ride as fast as YOU can.  Not as fast as you can along with your college buddy or anyone else you know.

The rules really are simple.  They can be found here, http://tourdivide.org/the_rules  Lets have a clean race!