The Spirit of the Tour Divide

[flyboy]

Don't feel bad. You make a good point.

If you have listed more than 25 days (for males, 29.5 days for females) as your target time in the Google doc, then by the rules you are touring the route, not racing it.  

Edit: Added gender specifics.

[BobM]

Don't feel bad. You make a good point.

If you have listed more than 25 days (for males, 29.5 days for females) as your target time in the Google doc, then by the rules you are touring the route, not racing it. 

Edit: Added gender specifics.

If you are capable of racing the route in 20 days and you list 25, you are touring it.  If you are 60 years old and arthritic with atrial fibrillation and you push yourself as hard as you can for 26 or 28 days, you are racing.

The Rules only state that 25/29.5 days is considered to be a "competitive" time, whatever that means; 25 days ain't gonna win it.

[kato]

I know a lot of thought goes into the time it takes someone to finish and that slower people are somehow not racing.  Maybe, maybe not.  I'm a pretty simple guy so I like to keep this biking thing simple.  I think the guiding principle from the TD website can be broken down into a few main points.
A) Follow the designated race route.
B) Do it as fast as YOU can
C) Do not plan on riding with anyone else

After I had to drop out last year I took up residence on route until my transportation back home could get to me.  For several days I got to meet some racers that were coming in behind me.  Some were racing and some weren't.  It was easy to see and it had nothing to do with their speed.
One overriding comment that really struck me was something like this, "Well, I'm so far back I'm not really in it to compete so it doesn't matter if I follow all the rules."  Mostly I saw course deviations and purposeful riding with or cooperation with a companion.  If they didn't feel like they were racing then why not honorably relegate themselves?  It was the spirit of the racers that turned them into non-racers.
Speed can carry a rider into the front but if they don't follow the route they don't win.  If they set out from the start riding with their coach for 5 days, spend the night in Steamboat at a friend of a friends house and have been begging bystanders for food/water they don't win.  A guy who finishes in 30 days will win his race if that's as fast as he can go and has finished a "clean" race.  I know which one I'd be cheering on.

The spirit of the Divide has much less to do with overall speed than it does with overall character.  I don't think there is a rule we could write to define this.
If we all set out from Banff or Antelope Wells with the guiding principle of the TD in mind, "The Tour Divide challenge is based on one guiding principle: Cycle the GDMBR end-to-end, as fast as possible in a solo, self-supported fashion" then we will all win our races and a round of high-fives will be in order.

[Marshal]

First I think kato hits the nail squarely on the head on both points he makes!!!!!!!

1st the TDR is a race and this should be one's main motivation for signing up and ‘raceing’---ie: yes--The Tour Divide challenge is based on one guiding principle: Cycle the GDMBR end-to-end, as fast as possible in a solo, self-supported fashion.


2nd I agree with kato that you are there for the right reasons if--Do it as fast as YOU can
However if we clarify point #2, from the TDR rule page: There is no finish time cut-off, however, current convention considers a competitive Divide Route finish time as approximately 1.5 times (x) course records. If we break this down there is no finish time cut-off, but racers should strive for a completive finish.

Current completive finish times for men would be somewhere “around” 22.2 to 23.5 days, depending how you slice the apple. So let’s say 23 days.  For women this would be 28.7 or say 29 days (Some reference about competitive finish times for men--glancing at trackleaders data: Over the last 5 years a finish just less than 25 days would on average secure you a top 30 position)

To summarize:
  1) Come to race in alignment with all TDR guidelines and rules.
  2) Strive to, and secure your best finish time within said rule set.
  3) If 25 days or more was your ‘best’ then while you were not even close to competitive with a JP or MH but you were out there  for the correct reason.

[Majcolo]

Kato is spot on.

I miss Toby around here.

Unfortunately as long as there is something external to be gained, whether prestige, notoriety, reputation, or a place on a finishing list, certain kinds of people will rationalize rule bending or breaking in order to gain or retain that thing.

Luckily what those people do won't affect my race, or my experience. And maybe that's the most important point.

[alanbossert]

The TD is the Tour Divide.  It's a race.  The Great Divide Mountain Bike Route is a route that can be toured at any time.

...including leaving from Banff on the second Friday in June at 8am.

[Marshal]

...including leaving from Banff on the second Friday in June at 8am.

Sure anyone can tour any time, but I honestly don't get where you are coming from. (3 posts--all basically implying you choose not to observe the TDR rules)

I am probably missing something but if your motivation is so out of line with the intention of the TDR why participate in the GD vs a straight up tour?

[flyboy]

If you are capable of racing the route in 20 days and you list 25, you are touring it.  If you are 60 years old and arthritic with atrial fibrillation and you push yourself as hard as you can for 26 or 28 days, you are racing.

The Rules only state that 25/29.5 days is considered to be a "competitive" time, whatever that means; 25 days ain't gonna win it.

I was just making the point that it is a race. Races are competitive activities. To be competitive there is a stated time limit in the rules.
I was not implying that some are less worthy or aren't trying as hard. I may well find that I don't make my goal time(or even finish for that matter) but to be considered competitive one must meet the cut off.
To be brutally blunt, everyone that doesn't actually win the race is "an also ran" so unless you think you can do this thing in around 16 days why toe the line? Well, for the reasons Kato listed above-to challenge yourself while having the self discipline to follow the spirit of the rules. Only you will know that you did or didn't do it right.
This thread really is going around in circles but maybe it is a discussion that needs to keep on going so that future racers are able to see the complexity of these few simple rules?
I think I miss Toby too. 

[BobM]

I was just making the point that it is a race. Races are competitive activities. To be competitive there is a stated time limit in the rules.
I was not implying that some are less worthy or aren't trying as hard. I may well find that I don't make my goal time(or even finish for that matter) but to be considered competitive one must meet the cut off.
To be brutally blunt, everyone that doesn't actually win the race is "an also ran" so unless you think you can do this thing in around 16 days why toe the line? Well, for the reasons Kato listed above-to challenge yourself while having the self discipline to follow the spirit of the rules. Only you will know that you did or didn't do it right.
This thread really is going around in circles but maybe it is a discussion that needs to keep on going so that future racers are able to see the complexity of these few simple rules?
I think I miss Toby too. 

That is certainly true in a race with a cut-off or time limit, which is not the case with the Tour Divide.  Should Matthew wish to put a cut-off in place he can do so.  The GDR used to have 3 or 4 timing points that had to be met for a person to be still considered to be in the race.

[Majcolo]

...including leaving from Banff on the second Friday in June at 8am.

So you want to be included as a participant in the race, and included on Trackleaders, and listed as a finisher, but you don't want to follow the rules and aren't actually racing? That's a social ride, not TD. Nothing wrong with that, but that's not TD. If your intent was never to race, you should have relegated yourself immediately so as not to cause confusion and dilute the race results.

"Breaking the rules slows me down, so don't worry about it and let me participate" is silly. Would you feel the same way about your local race series, or your local dirty century?

Racing TD is not just about covering the miles, it's about covering the miles in a certain way. It's about dealing with isolation and loneliness, overcoming obstacles using only the same resources available to everyone else along the route, and plumbing the depths of your spirit and psyche in ways that can only happen when you're on your own in difficult circumstances for an extended period of time.

This is actually true for every bikepacking race, not just TD.

It's starting to feel like some non-racer needs to step up and organize social rides around the more popular races both to preserve the underground nature of the races themselves and to create an event that it seems a significant number of people are interested in. TD for the racers, STD (pun intended) for the social riders that just want to tour the route at a relatively speedy pace with a group of friends or like-minded individuals.

[BobM]

It's starting to feel like some non-racer needs to step up and organize social rides around the more popular races both to preserve the underground nature of the races themselves and to create an event that it seems a significant number of people are interested in. TD for the racers, STD (pun intended) for the social riders that just want to tour the route at a relatively speedy pace with a group of friends or like-minded individuals.

Actually, Trackleaders already provides this option - all it requires is honesty on the part of participants.  Relegate yourself at the start and your dot has a different color; friends and family can still track your progress, but no one will confuse you with the folks who are plugging along under the ruleset.  If this becomes too cumbersome I'm sure Trackleaders could simply move those dots to a separate page.

[Majcolo]

Actually, Trackleaders already provides this option - all it requires is honesty on the part of participants.  Relegate yourself at the start and your dot has a different color; friends and family can still track your progress, but no one will confuse you with the folks who are plugging along under the ruleset.  If this becomes too cumbersome I'm sure Trackleaders could simply move those dots to a separate page.

Lol. His position makes even less sense to me now. I'd forgotten that.

[sfuller]

Sure anyone can tour any time, but I honestly don't get where you are coming from. (3 posts--all basically implying you choose not to observe the TDR rules)

I am probably missing something but if your motivation is so out of line with the intention of the TDR why participate in the GD vs a straight up tour?

Honestly, if I was going to tour the route, I would much rather leave around late July when the passes are more likely to be rideable and not have snow cover. I was on route in Montana during the last week of July. Whitefish Divide and the descent off of Red Meadow had only been opened a week or so due to clearing avalanche debris. There was still snow on Whitefish Divide then too.

[THE LONG RANGER]

If leaving in July, you'd likely hit some bad weather in NM, which would make much of route impassable. Big reason why the race is in June. Fast ITT's, like JayP's happen even later (Sept? Oct?) and he still hit that weather.

[alanbossert]

So you want to be included as a participant in the race, and included on Trackleaders, and listed as a finisher, but you don't want to follow the rules and aren't actually racing? That's a social ride, not TD. Nothing wrong with that, but that's not TD. If your intent was never to race, you should have relegated yourself immediately so as not to cause confusion and dilute the race results.

Hmm...now you’re putting words in my mouth. Please don't do that. Feel free to call me a 'Grand depart poacher'. That's fair. I understand how that could upset some people and I apologize for doing it that way. But don't make it sound as if I'm seeking some kind of credit for my half-ass attempt. I assure you I am not on any finisher list, nor was I even on trackleaders, so never felt the need to 'relegate myself'.

"Breaking the rules slows me down, so don't worry about it and let me participate" is silly.

My argument for less rules was more for the sake of debate. This thread only exists because a few folks got worked up about others cheating and not relegating themselves. I was only offering this idea up to appease this group. Less rules could lead to less drama. Is it the right answer? Maybe not. If I ever race, I’ll do my best to follow the current rules, whatever they may be.

[Marshal]

Hmm...now you’re putting words in my mouth. Please don't do that. Feel free to call me a 'Grand depart poacher'. That's fair. I understand how that could upset some people and I apologize for doing it that way. But don't make it sound as if I'm seeking some kind of credit for my half-ass attempt. I assure you I am not on any finisher list, nor was I even on trackleaders, so never felt the need to 'relegate myself'.

My argument for less rules was more for the sake of debate. This thread only exists because a few folks got worked up about others cheating and not relegating themselves. I was only offering this idea up to appease this group. Less rules could lead to less drama. Is it the right answer? Maybe not. If I ever race, I’ll do my best to follow the current rules, whatever they may be.

Thanks for the clarification and 'well said' about being willing to follow rules if you come back to race-ie: you would do your best to follow the rules. 

As far as this ‘rules’ thread we get at least one like it every year.  And it’s always the same ol same ol points and arguments.  I usually chime in for two reasons. 

At one time it was mostly to help clarify my own thinking on rules and more importantly how I planned to deal with difficult circumstances during a self-supported race.  During a race when things are unexpectedly going south I have found its quite easy to lose track of one’s pre-race intentions and suddenly find oneself on the wrong side of some rule, particularly the minor rules.

Today I mostly chime in on these perpetual rules threads to perhaps educate and steer the open minded towards acknowledging that even these underground races have rules and that they do matter.   

On a side note--I am still curious as to why you elected to start your non-race ride with the GD?

[Majcolo]

Hmm...now you’re putting words in my mouth. Please don't do that. Feel free to call me a 'Grand depart poacher'. That's fair. I understand how that could upset some people and I apologize for doing it that way. But don't make it sound as if I'm seeking some kind of credit for my half-ass attempt. I assure you I am not on any finisher list, nor was I even on trackleaders, so never felt the need to 'relegate myself'.

My argument for less rules was more for the sake of debate. This thread only exists because a few folks got worked up about others cheating and not relegating themselves. I was only offering this idea up to appease this group. Less rules could lead to less drama. Is it the right answer? Maybe not. If I ever race, I’ll do my best to follow the current rules, whatever they may be.

Sorry, not my intent. I'm sure I conflated some of your arguments with those of others and mixed that with posting before my first cup of coffee.

These threads always exist because there an unfortunate number of people each year that rationalize violating the spirit of the races and the sport, with the side effect that the actual competition becomes devalued which frustrates people. You mentioned that you are new to the sport; go back and read anything you can find that Matt Lee (user name Mathewsen) posted on this board about the rules and their intent and the design intent of the race. It's an inspiring ideal if you're into that sort of thing.

[mtbcast]

I think what causes us to debate these rules is the fact that this race is so epic. People argue about short races but largely you kinda accept things and go. If this were a XC or 12hr it would be less of a concern. But having pedaled say half the distance only to find that the temptation to break a rule was too tempting or that you blew the route unintentionally but clearly, makes for a much larger pill to swallow. Ultimately, its the more than just the distance. It's the rules that also define the race. And it's playing within those rules is what gives weight to victory. My hat goes off to the ones that finish within the rules and those who finish but stand up and say, "I took this alternate for this reason and accept my relegation." That's where integrity lies.

[alanbossert]

On a side note--I am still curious as to why you elected to start your non-race ride with the GD?

To "minimize my alone-ness" in grizzly country. I was prepared to ride alone, just liked the idea of others being in the vicinity while traveling through the flathead.

[mtbcast]

To "minimize my alone-ness" in grizzly country. I was prepared to ride alone, just liked the idea of others being in the vicinity while traveling through the flathead.

If/when I ever ride this race my training will be as much about keeping pace with enough people through the Flathead as it will about finishing in a decent time.