The Spirit of the Tour Divide

[Wyatt72]

Bottom line is simple. Some people will always feel the need to twist s*** around to justify non compliance. I find it somewhat entertaining that those of you In The know even respond to there ignorance. Never the less it's entertaining.

[eec]

I'm still pretty new here, and find myself digging up some really old but interesting, useful threads, this being one of them.

I'm struggling to wrap my head around a time/mph pace that will get me to the finish within my goal, which I guess will be considered "competitive", which leads me to this: how is it fair that in order to be considered competitive, you have to be roughly 1.5x the record pace? The ones setting those records are typically professional athletes -- that is their job. And they have a ton of support outside of the race to help them be as best as they can be. Most of us are not that lucky. We have jobs, families, limited training time, limited budgets, etc. While I like the concept of open classification, and digging deep to try and keep pace with those athletes brings out more in us than we could have imagined, I just think it's unrealistic for the majority of us to keep that pace. It's why most races have categories, albeit they're usually sanctioned events. But the principle being that most of us are not pros.

Mont Vontoux is considered by many to be the toughest mountain to climb when it's included in the Tour De France. The record ascent is 55min:51sec, set by Iban Mayo in 2004. That's 13.5 miles (roughly 22 km), with an average gradient of 7.43%, at a 14.4 mph pace. There are 4 km of that climb that are above 10% gradient, and only 4 km of the climb under 5%. So by TDR standards, in order to be considered competitive, you'd have to finish in 1hr:23min:27sec, with an average pace of 9.7mph. If you give it your all and finish in 1hr:23min:28sec, sorry, you're not competitive. But really, how many of us can honestly say we'd even be close to that time? [Edit: even when I was at top form road racing, I don't believe I could have been considered "competitive" climbing Mont Ventoux, even to the pro with the slowest time]

I know this is an old thread, and sorry if all of this has been either cleared up or forgotten, but I don't think pace/finishing time should be a reason for relegation. Your finish time is your finish time. Who's to say the person who finished in 30 days didn't go as fast as they could? Cheating/breaking rules to reach that finish time is another story.

[kj78133]

Who's to say the person who finished in 30 days didn't go as fast as they could? Cheating/breaking rules to reach that finish time is another story.

I think you've got it!

Follow the route, self-supported, as fast as you can.  Keep it simple.

KJ

P.S.  I like the way Josh Kato and Marshall Bird think also; see posts 242 and 243.

[Pivvay]

The ones setting those records are typically professional athletes -- that is their job. And they have a ton of support outside of the race to help them be as best as they can be. Most of us are not that lucky. We have jobs, families, limited training time, limited budgets, etc. While I like the concept of open classification, and digging deep to try and keep pace with those athletes brings out more in us than we could have imagined, I just think it's unrealistic for the majority of us to keep that pace. It's why most races have categories, albeit they're usually sanctioned events. But the principle being that most of us are not pros

I think you're reaching to describe the top Tour Divide riders as pros. I'm definite not a pro.

[kiwidave]

The 1.5x the time of the winner for a competitive time was for back in the day when there were lots of ITT's compared to Grand Departs so people could get an idea of a "fast paced" ride. Now the GD is dominating the annual completes it is pretty clear if you are competitive or not by looking at your finish place - if that is what is important to you. The new rule is that if you go under 31 day pace they will change your Spot dot on Trackleaders to white to denote "touring mode".

I rode it this year with a goal 25 days and finished in 25.5 days (nearly 2x) - and I got nothing but encouragement and support even from the top guys. David Stowe went past on day 2 with a big smile and words of encouragement, Josh Kato (2015 winner) was out taking pics in Wyoming and also was super supportive despite Mike Hall being in New Mexico already! No-one cares about your finish time and no-one will comment if it is 18/22/26/30 days - it is simply you have finished the TD, and everyone is wow, cool. Chris Plesko was the first on-line congrats, and he finished in 10 days before me!!

The winners aren't pros at all - just immensely talented and able to maintain a fast comfortable cruise with minimal rest (and also able to eat a lot): Olly Whally - full time engineer, Mike Hall - 13/16 - cyclist/entrepreneur; Jefe Banham - bike mechanic; Josh Kato - nurse. Chris Plesko - teacher.

I'm curious what you time goal is?

[WatermelonSugar]

Yeah nobody should get any grief about being 1.5x over the record, It's well known that top riders are incredibly talented/committed. Anybody that attempts the route should be encouraged and cheered, even finishing over 30 days if you gave it your all, pushed it to the max, it's a hell of an achievement.
....and I wouldn't consider those Mont Vontoux records as real times, those guys are loaded full of drugs and who knows what else!!!

[Unai]

The ones setting those records are typically professional athletes -- that is their job. And they have a ton of support outside of the race to help them be as best as they can be. Most of us are not that lucky. We have jobs, families, limited training time, limited budgets, etc. While I like the concept of open classification, and digging deep to try and keep pace with those athletes brings out more in us than we could have imagined, I just think it's unrealistic for the majority of us to keep that pace. It's why most races have categories, albeit they're usually sanctioned events. But the principle being that most of us are not pros.

[Unai]

The ones setting those records are NOT typically professional athletes... They are very good in ultras, and we have to accept. Someones have some aid with the equipement, OK. But they´ve got this aid because they are very good in this sport, not the opposite. If "Salsa" helps you with a bike for example, only for this, you are not going to make a super finish time. Each one, has to know where is his limit, his time for training and considering all this, his goal finish time. 
Comparing TD with the Tour de France is like comparing beer with wine. The TD is a 20 (or the days you spend) ultras consecutive race, non stop, not resting too much and not eating well. Nothing to do with conventional road cycling. 

[eec]

I figured everything had chilled out since the last post in this thread. My apologies for resurrecting the topic. I just found it interesting. Also interesting, and encouraging, to hear that top riders are indeed not pros. I just figured it to be the case seeing so much sponsorship.

I personally don't care to compare finish times with anyone else. It's a huge accomplishment no matter what the time is. I just found it a little unfair to relegate someone to not being competitive compared to top riders, even if they're "going as fast as they can". Anyway...

kiwidave:
my goals are 1) finish; 2) try for 20-23 days; 3) be prepared for things to happen that will extend that goal. With that said, I'll have limited time off work, so there's a definite cut off for me, but if that cut off closes in, I'd rather bail than cheat on the course.

I love the community of shared misery and accomplishment. Good stuff.

[kato]

Kojootti,  this thread usually pops up here and there.  In the past there have been some spirited discussions on the "rules" surrounding the Divide.  No need to apologize for reviving this discussion.  It's usually good to bring it up every once in a while so those new to our community can learn from the old discussions.

In terms of cut off times.  If you race your heart out and abide by the few rules of the race no matter how fast or slow you are you have accomplished something amazing.  We often place a lot of emphasis on speed and records.  Those that have toured the Great Divide are just as awesome as those that have raced the Tour Divide.  Yes, the spotlight often falls on the fast folks and touring the Divide is often not thought of as being as "sexy" as racing the Divide.  For me, I'm envious of those out there touring the route, able to take the time to fully immerse themselves in the experience.  Personally I never set out to race the Divide for the spotlight.  It was about a personal challenge.  I think this is why almost all of us are out there.  Our bikepacking community is one that I am proud to be a part of.  We are all just misfits out doing something fun.  No matter how fast or slow you go down the Divide we will all be cheering.

In terms of sponsorship.  Yes, winning can get a person a few things here and there but as far as I am aware there is only one fellow out there actually making his living at it and he works his legs off.  He doesn't win everything all the time but he is out there growing the sport and being an ambassador for us all.  One of the great aspects of bikepack races is that any random fellow can go out and have the race of a lifetime.  I think it gives us a dream to chase after.  In the end though most of us are all out there chasing a similar goal of finishing and many of us have overcome similar challenges to get there.

Hope to meet you on the trail some day!

[taprider]

sometimes following Rule #1 is tough
"Ride 100% of the route"

in the BC Epic 1000 the gpx route clearly leaves the rail trail and takes a longer route on campground roads at one point; however, the race organizer says the route is the rail trail
for the AZTR the gpx route clearly leaves the signed and marked AZT just before the Oracle Underpass, in many other places the gpx seems to randomly wander through the bush and does not follow the one and only possible trail, and in other places due to forest fires and fallen trees no route is visible

so no matter what route you pick, someone else will say you chose wrong and should be relegated

[Inkerpok]

Well said Kato.

[jamescyco]

Can the race truly be called "self-supported" if a sponsor can overnight _ or at least quickly ship _ a bike (Salsa Fargo) or a fork (Cannondale)? Would Bill or Betty Bagodonuts really have the wherewithal to do that, or at least that quickly? To this day, the most impressive ride for me was that young lady on the Sekai fixed-gear a few years ago, even though I think she was disqualified for cutting some of the route due to a fire. I seem to remember the flap over that from the sponsored "purists."

[THE LONG RANGER]

The rules state,

8a. Once a race clock begins, a rider may be assisted by a third party in receiving emergency repair/replacement items only.

"by a third party", so that checks out. :shrug:

[THE LONG RANGER]

Deanna Adams - totally an awesome run from Tour Divide lore. After the TD, she just kept going through Mexico, I believe.

I think the relegation was unfortunate, but seemed pretty cut/dry.

It doesn't discount a supremely awesome ride though (in my book)

[BobM]

Deanna Adams - totally an awesome run from Tour Divide lore. After the TD, she just kept going through Mexico, I believe.

I think the relegation was unfortunate, but seemed pretty cut/dry.

It doesn't discount a supremely awesome ride though (in my book)

Incredible ride by her!  The part she cut was a missed turn before Helena (no fire).  She had had an epileptic seizure prior to that and stated that she had no recollection of missing the turn, plus her Spot did not track that part.  Pretty tough call for the race administrators.

[BobM]

Can the race truly be called "self-supported" if a sponsor can overnight _ or at least quickly ship _ a bike (Salsa Fargo) or a fork (Cannondale)? Would Bill or Betty Bagodonuts really have the wherewithal to do that, or at least that quickly? To this day, the most impressive ride for me was that young lady on the Sekai fixed-gear a few years ago, even though I think she was disqualified for cutting some of the route due to a fire. I seem to remember the flap over that from the sponsored "purists."

Actually, lots of riders arrange this type of emergency support in advance of the race from their LBS.  Just takes a little prior planning.

[ScottM]

Incredible ride by her!  The part she cut was a missed turn before Helena (no fire).  She had had an epileptic seizure prior to that and stated that she had no recollection of missing the turn, plus her Spot did not track that part.  Pretty tough call for the race administrators.

From what I understand, another rider was with her, who *was* tracking and admitted missing the section with her.  Still, it was a difficult one.

This whole debacle was the start of why TD hasn't published results for years, as you may know.

[saskawhat]

If you race your heart out and abide by the few rules of the race no matter how fast or slow you are you have accomplished something amazing.  We often place a lot of emphasis on speed and records.  Those that have toured the Great Divide are just as awesome as those that have raced the Tour Divide.

This. All of this.

[ScottM]

This. All of this.

Agreed.  It seems like too often folks equate relegation with dishonor (especially for minor infractions or accidental sections missed).  I don't see it that way.  People touring the route completed something awesome.  People who raced and followed the rules are awesome.  People who raced and got 'relegated' for missing a section (or an Orange dot) are awesome, too.  Only deliberate cheaters (which are rare) are the dishonorable, IMO.

In the AZTR I've told people often that if they have to take a ride, bum a bike part, skip a section or whatever, do it and continue the ride!  The ride is what matters most.  It's not deliberate cheating (or dishonor at all) if you knowingly break a rule, report it and own it.  And no one should ever let some dork's (*) conception of what the rules should be, ruin or stop an otherwise highly successful ride.

(*) This is a reference to myself, the dork that runs AZTR.