Tour Divide 2009

[Mathewsen]

...the Divide on woolen wheels.  Good at any temperature.
Even if wet.  But can be a bit smelly then.  

helps stave off those chumps who draft...

[XO-1.org]

Where's the proof that Deanna cut or mis-rode the 2009 Tour Divide course? Has she admitted any wrongdoing? How can Matthew rightfully "relegate" her weeks after the alleged incident? How can this "race organizer" claim a lack of bias when he was a competitor in the event, too? This event can have no credibility if a competitor in the event gets to quarterback it AFTER it takes place (or even during it, for that matter). What's next, "relegating" somebody who beats him next year? Give me a break. This is as rank amateur as an event organizer can get. And I say that as a full-time professional event promoter, who also has the good sense to not compete in my own events.

The GPS units were not mandatory; it's not right or reasonable to turn around and try to use the data they provide in this manner. As for rewriting the rules based on this year's experience, by all means do so, but don't try to claim that you can retroactively implement them. That's a ridiculous presumption.

Do you really think that somebody with as much stacked against her as Deanna had - fixed gear converted road bike, female, limited financial resources, quit her job to race, epileptic, vegan, to name a few - would either intentionally cut the course, or be lazy about going back to re-do part of the course she'd done wrong??? Of course not.

Deanna is a woman of integrity and a true sportsperson. I know this because she has competed in several of our events, and ridden in our training camps. We stay in touch, I read her blog, I keep tabs on her. I know what kind of person and athlete she is: top notch. I've seen her DNF and I've seen her finish grueling races. I am proud of her as an athlete and a young woman. She's a fine person with absolute integrity. I respect her tremendously. Deanna Adams finished the 2009 Tour Divide, fair and square and as properly and truthfully as any other competitor did who has not been "relegated."

During the Tour Divide this year, she even rode through a forest fire to avoid cutting the course or risk being DQ'd. You think she missed 40 miles of the entire route? I doubt it very much. And if she did, unknowingly, does anyone really think that ALL of the "official finishers" rode 100% of the route legally, completely, and with absolute certainty? I daresay probably not one of them did (which is by no means to suggest that any of them "cheated". I"m just saying that Matthew's "standards" are unrealistic and impossible to claim were met with 100% certainty.)

Deanna doesn't believe that she cut or otherwise modified the course. Her word is all I need, and it's certainly all the word anyone else needs if they know anything about her. Furthermore, she's a role model to innumerable people out there: male, female, epileptic, vegan, fixie rider, or otherwise. That doesn't give her the right to "get away with" anything. In fact, she holds herself to a higher standard because so many watch and care about her. Now, if only the "race director" had as much class and sophistication, not to mention common sense.

Yours in sport,
Chris Kostman
Chief Adventure Officer and Race Director, AdventureCORPS, Inc.
Promoter of Furnace Creek 508, Badwater Ultramarathon, and more:
http://www.adventurecorps.com
http://www.the508.com
http://www.badwater.com
http://www.XO-1.org

[Slowerthensnot]

A neutral point to made here on the juggernaut otherwise known as, "dumbing-down", is it is largely a product of the world we live in and part n' parcel of progress. The GDMBR and other, once unknown routes are being "dumbed down" by development, by bloggers, by the abundance of info now available about every bit of route minutia, every secret water source, every camp spot, etc. For better or worse these elements alter the difficulty factor. GPS nav. and SPOT tracking are having an impact as well.

The only effective ways to maintain difficulty standards are a) simulate the old days somehow, b) make the courses harder by degrees as we go on (CTR `09, full GDMBR), and c) try to isolate out -or at least minimize- certain currently acceptable ergogenic aids (like serendipitous support). I don't propose to have all the answers but the simple, morally unambiguous solution is b, make the courses harder as races on them mature.

TD will do it's best to achieve a, b and probably c in helping preserve -or approximate- original Divide racing difficulty, but it will never again be the same as it was when John solo'd it 10 years ago, or even when Mike C. bravely challenged his mark 5 years later. We *can* wax nostalgic, though. Anyone want to found the Great Divide Hysterical Society? Maybe it can bring back wool and wooden wheels.

very true ML...  comment was made on the context of keeping the core rules intact...

[Slowerthensnot]

Where's the proof that Deanna cut or mis-rode the 2009 Tour Divide course? Has she admitted any wrongdoing? How can Matthew rightfully "relegate" her weeks after the alleged incident? How can this "race organizer" claim a lack of bias when he was a competitor in the event, too? This event can have no credibility if a competitor in the event gets to quarterback it AFTER it takes place (or even during it, for that matter). What's next, "relegating" somebody who beats him next year? Give me a break. This is as rank amateur as an event organizer can get. And I say that as a full-time professional event promoter, who also has the good sense to not compete in my own events.

I have to speak to this question of ML's integrity.  In all my dealings with him he has never been anything but %100 honest with me. Not to mention helpful when clarifying anything.. Speaking of clarification I don't think they are rule changes per se just clarifications.... Kevin, Matthew, myself and others went to great pains to go through the rules...  the intension was to keep them simple and in the spirit of self integrity...

As to the comment of anyracer not doing the 100% route, this just hacks me off with being a starter the last 4 years!!

[MikeC]

Where's the proof that Deanna cut or mis-rode the 2009 Tour Divide course? Has she admitted any wrongdoing? How can Matthew rightfully "relegate" her weeks after the alleged incident? How can this "race organizer" claim a lack of bias when he was a competitor in the event, too? This event can have no credibility if a competitor in the event gets to quarterback it AFTER it takes place (or even during it, for that matter). What's next, "relegating" somebody who beats him next year? Give me a break. This is as rank amateur as an event organizer can get. And I say that as a full-time professional event promoter, who also has the good sense to not compete in my own events.

Respectfully, Chris, you're out of line here.  Being one of the few that works hard and earns a good living promoting top-notch for-profit ultra races gives you no right to (harshly) judge those of us who've kept it a purely passionate thing.  Matt made a tough call based on hard evidence.  We don't have to like it (I *really* wanted the chica on the hoopty bike to be the first to scorch the route) but to personally attack Matt for having the integrity to use the facts and make a decision is ridiculous.  And juvenile.  And silly.

The GPS units were not mandatory; it's not right or reasonable to turn around and try to use the data they provide in this manner.

Three things come to mind here:
-Neither tires nor shoes are mandatory, but if they leave a track in the mud can you not then say where a rider has been?  
-You're OK with using the SPOT to see where racers have been, but we're supposed to ignore when their dots wander off course?  
-If she wasn't carrying a SPOT then deviating from the course would have been OK?  ?!!?  

All three point to your above statement as hypocrisy, plain and simple.

Do you really think that somebody with as much stacked against her as Deanna had - fixed gear converted road bike, female, limited financial resources, quit her job to race, epileptic, vegan, to name a few - would either intentionally cut the course, or be lazy about going back to re-do part of the course she'd done wrong??? Of course not.

As adults we each get the opportunity to choose our own path, and then, fortunately, we're often allowed to follow through on our decisions to see where they lead us.  Deanna's choices on diet, gear, and lifestyle are admirable to many, but they emphatically do NOT give her any reason to deviate from the very clear rule set.  There's no excuse for missing a section of the course--Deanna can only blame Deanna for that.

Deanna is a woman of integrity and a true sportsperson. I know this because she has competed in several of our events, and ridden in our training camps. We stay in touch, I read her blog, I keep tabs on her. I know what kind of person and athlete she is: top notch. I've seen her DNF and I've seen her finish grueling races. I am proud of her as an athlete and a young woman. She's a fine person with absolute integrity. I respect her tremendously. Deanna Adams finished the 2009 Tour Divide, fair and square and as properly and truthfully as any other competitor did who has not been "relegated."

It sounds (to me) like you're too personally invested in Deanna to be objective here.  To state that she finished 'fair and square' against the clear evidence that she did NOT do so makes this pretty obvious.

During the Tour Divide this year, she even rode through a forest fire to avoid cutting the course or risk being DQ'd. You think she missed 40 miles of the entire route? I doubt it very much. And if she did, unknowingly, does anyone really think that ALL of the "official finishers" rode 100% of the route legally, completely, and with absolute certainty? I daresay probably not one of them did (which is by no means to suggest that any of them "cheated". I"m just saying that Matthew's "standards" are unrealistic and impossible to claim were met with 100% certainty.)

If you've seen/read the ACA maps then you understand that there isn't any ambiguity about the route.  It is easy to stay on course 100% of the time, provided your eyes are open and synapses are firing.  Sure, a moment's inattention can allow you to drift off course, but only a (poor, IMO) decision can prevent you from retracing the route to get back ON course where you left it.  Your suggestion that not all racers rode 100% of the race route is offensive to those of us who've done exactly that.  Your further suggestion that it's unrealistic or impossible to claim that a person has covered 100% of the route is simply ignorant.  You know better than that, Chris.

Deanna doesn't believe that she cut or otherwise modified the course. Her word is all I need, and it's certainly all the word anyone else needs if they know anything about her. Furthermore, she's a role model to innumerable people out there: male, female, epileptic, vegan, fixie rider, or otherwise. That doesn't give her the right to "get away with" anything. In fact, she holds herself to a higher standard because so many watch and care about her.

Your opinion has been noted, Chris, though the personal and passive-aggressive way you've presented it isn't earning you any fans or credibility.    

Now, if only the "race director" had as much class and sophistication, not to mention common sense.

Matt Lee and I have infrequently seen eye to eye on many issues surrounding Divide racing. That does nothing to diminish the fact that he does an excellent job with the big picture of RD'ing.  As all three of us know, you can't be a good RD *and* be everyone's friend at the same time.  Class and sophistication are nice tags to append after the fact, but what's really needed to be a successful RD is a clear understanding of the rules and heaps of integrity.  Matt made a tough decision and did the unpopular thing.  It was the only thing a good RD *could* do in that situation.

Cheers,

MC

[Pivvay]

What MC said is all true. I can't think of anyone who didn't want Deanna to finish but if you don't ride the course you don't finish. Plenty of riders early in the race who made the same mistake backtracked to not miss any of the course. Still more riders that made the same mistake did not wish to backtrack for whatever reason and DQ'd themselves.

The rules of this game are simple and if you have trouble following the route, there are plenty of options to assist the rider like running multiple computers and carrying a GPS.

As to Matthew Lee being anything but the most honest and sophisticated race director, him racing in his own race has nothing to do with that. He knows, follows and enforces the rules no matter how much it kills him to do so as I suspect it did for every rider who had to be relegated this year. Frankly Chris you owe Matt an apology for the words above.

[rocky rode]

Chris K you obviously didn't have all the facts before you verbally attacked Matthew.  Matthew is a good friend and I can promise you it pains him more than anyone to DQ a rider, especially Deanna and her amazing accomplishment.  The Spot doesn't lie. 

It is normal in underground racing (no entry fees) for the race director to compete in the race.  They only put the race on because they are passionate about it.  It's only fair they get to ride it too.  Surely you can understand that?

Chris, maybe you'd like to be involved in directing Tour Divide or GDR?  It involves many, many hours of work, conflicts with your significant other due to time spent on administration, dealing with people who think you are a jerk and no monetary compensation, in fact you'll need to put some of your own money into making it happen.

I also agree with Mike's comments, thanks for posting Mike!

Gary

[tangyman]

I don't have a dog in this fight.

MIkeC said "If you've seen/read the ACA maps then you understand that there isn't any ambiguity about the route.  It is easy to stay on course 100% of the time, provided your eyes are open and synapses are firing.  Sure, a moment's inattention can allow you to drift off course, but only a (poor, IMO) decision can prevent you from retracing the route to get back ON course where you left it.  Your suggestion that not all racers rode 100% of the race route is offensive to those of us who've done exactly that.  Your further suggestion that it's unrealistic or impossible to claim that a person has covered 100% of the route is simply ignorant.  You know better than that, Chris."

Pivvay said "Plenty of riders early in the race who made the same mistake backtracked to not miss any of the course. Still more riders that made the same mistake did not wish to backtrack for whatever reason and DQ'd themselves."

These two statements made by different commentators seem to be incongruent.  It seems to me there is obviously a problem with the map if several people made the same mistake.  If there was a map problem, own up to it and add penalty time to the racers that didn't backtrack and remove the relegated status.

[Mathewsen]

I don't have a dog in this fight.

MIkeC said "If you've seen/read the ACA maps then you understand that there isn't any ambiguity about the route.  It is easy to stay on course 100% of the time, provided your eyes are open and synapses are firing.  Sure, a moment's inattention can allow you to drift off course, but only a (poor, IMO) decision can prevent you from retracing the route to get back ON course where you left it.  Your suggestion that not all racers rode 100% of the race route is offensive to those of us who've done exactly that.  Your further suggestion that it's unrealistic or impossible to claim that a person has covered 100% of the route is simply ignorant.  You know better than that, Chris."

Pivvay said "Plenty of riders early in the race who made the same mistake backtracked to not miss any of the course. Still more riders that made the same mistake did not wish to backtrack for whatever reason and DQ'd themselves."

These two statements made by different commentators seem to be incongruent.  It seems to me there is obviously a problem with the map if several people made the same mistake.  If there was a map problem, own up to it and add penalty time to the racers that didn't backtrack and remove the relegated status.

Tangy, nice first post. If you want street cred here, prefacing with a "no dog in the fight" phrase isn't best. It essentially means you have no interest at stake, which seems "incongruous" with your closing rhetoric urging time penalties instead of relegation.

If you key on MC's conditional, "provided your eyes are open and synapses are firing", that follows his "no ambiguity" assertion, it's not hard to deduce both MC and Pivvay's statements are true. As someone who has ridden the route more than once, I'll try to illustrate MC's point thru specifics of the Lincoln to Helena segment:

Course errors, when stacked on top of each other, have an exponential effect on subsequent navigation. En route to Helena there are no less than 20 GDMBR turns (described in detail) that follow the tricky right turn up South Fork of Poorman Creek. To miss this turn (and continue on) is to miss 20 turns that follow. As MC says, there is no ambiguity [in missing 20 turns]. To boot, denial of 20 subsequent map turns isn't all that's required to arrive in Helena by an alternate route. One must also navigate -without any cues- roads with foreign designations, pavement, downhills not described and passing geographical features not listed. in other words, one wrong turn quickly snowballs into an undeniable avalanche; one so obvious it is the mental equivalent a 4 mile hike-a-bike. To deny one is in the middle of a 4 mile hike a bike - or to say you cannot remember such- is just kooky and that's basically what's being asserted by the relegated riders tied up in this imbroglio...And not to belabor the illustration but the Lincoln to Helena portion is just the beginning of the SNAFU. The ACA map used for this section clocks Helena at about 120miles of 287 total miles on Map1/sideB before a rider zeros out the cyclometer to begin fresh with Map 2. This means navigation for the subsequent 160 miles (past Helena) thru Butte and beyond to Polaris, MT (approx 1.5 days of riding) would all have to be done using some sort of math formula. To Claim not to remember any of this begs to question how a rider completed the rest of the course without additional errors.

[tangyman]

Matthew, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that a post meter was a measure of credibility. Next time I'll say I know none of the parties involved therefore my opinion is not influenced by any personal relationships with those affected.

Second,  it is illogical to think and simply wrong to suggest  that anyone that proposes a different solution then the one you instituted would by definition have an interest in one side versus the other. 

Finally, you contend there is no problem with the map or the route description.  If that is the case then no other discussion required. I was simply pointing out that one commentator stated that if your eyes are open (which presumably they are since it is hard to ride a bike with them closed) then you have an easy passage and another commentator that stated that several people were clearly pedalling shut-eyed and missed the turn.  That seemed to indicate a map problem and I was merely suggesting an alternative penalty when the error is not the fault of the participant. If the error is the fault of the participant then the remedy is clearly stated and the participant should abide by that result.

I have been fascinated following the race and I hope one day to complete all or part of the course myself.

[Mathewsen]

Matthew, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that a post meter was a measure of credibility.

no worries, it was a bit surly of me so say. sorry. perhaps my fatigue with that single right turn coming to define `09 racing is showing.

Finally, you contend there is no problem with the map or the route description.  If that is the case then no other discussion required. I was simply pointing out that one commentator stated that if your eyes are open (which presumably they are since it is hard to ride a bike with them closed) then you have an easy passage and another commentator that stated that several people were clearly pedaling shut-eyed and missed the turn. That seemed to indicate a map problem and I was merely suggesting an alternative penalty when the error is not the fault of the participant. If the error is the fault of the participant then the remedy is clearly stated and the participant should abide by that result.

here's the cues direct from the map:
* 61.6–Lincoln. Turn right at the blinking traffic light onto Sleepy Hallow (sic) Ave./Stemple Pass Rd. 66.5–Pass Fields Gulch. 68.3–Pass McClellan Gulch interp sign.70.9–Pass Rochester Gulch.*72.9–Turn right onto FR 4134 up the South Fork of  Poorman Creek. Next 4.4 miles are extremely steep uphill, but they lead through fascinating country with several stream crossings.

**the only thing to add in there that might be helpful riders is to say, "it looks like/serves as the driveway for several homes. it crosses a small bridge immediately". Neither the mileage or road designation are incorrect. the stream crossings are deep and the climb is brutally steep. there is no mistaking the error if you pass this.

again, the controversy is much less about missing the right turn up south fk of poorman than it is about how one gets from there into Helena and 200miles beyond without noticing the mistake. it's just not possible.

[wookieone]

This whole Relegation thing, and the insueing argument, scares me a bit. Reading all the posts here and on the TD discussion, it is like kids starting a fight. I just can't see how these folks who went off route can argue with being DQed, you missed the course! It matters not what the circumstances are, and like so many have stated you still rode from Banff to Mexico, and that is super f-ing bad ass no matter what route was taken, so really what is important to you, the ride or the accomplishment. You did the ride and that is yours, but if you don't follow the rules/course how can you say you finished the "race". It doesn't matter if you are a on a unicycle wearing a clown costume or what, at the start we are all equal, the rules the same for everyone. It is you who chooses the weapon to ride this in, if you choose to handicap yourself that is your choice, it shouldn't reflect on the what mistakes you make or your decisions on course. deana what you did was awesome, but if you did go off course that is your fault, Ok sorry to have to get into this too, just couldn't help myself. BUT Seriously, nice work to everyone who rode their little bikes from Canada to Mexico, I am impressed and inspired. Peace Jefe

[tangyman]

no worries, it was a bit surly of me so say. sorry. perhaps my fatigue with that single right turn coming to define `09 racing is showing.

Don't worry about.  Having been one for twenty years or so, unpaid volunteers get a pass from criticism in my book of rules to live by.

[wheelz]

The right turn in question is marked by a sign facing downhill traffic...It isn't marked as you ride up the hill. If you were to ride past the turn thinking it was farther up the hill, then there is a large sign indicating the road and the numbers which match the aca ques... the sign is approximately 20 yards past the turn as you continue uphill.

 

[700see.]

The right turn in question is marked by a sign facing downhill traffic...It isn't marked as you ride up the hill. If you were to ride past the turn thinking it was farther up the hill, then there is a large sign indicating the road and the numbers which match the aca ques... the sign is approximately 20 yards past the turn as you continue uphill.

That was my exact experience when I missed the turn in 2006. I turned around and found it easily. There still hasn't been a good explanation from any of the affected riders, who still seem unsatisfied with their relegation, on why/how they made it to Helena the way they did and still expect to be classified. I feel for them, but it's indefensible. Some of that missed section has some of the hardest climbing on the route from the parts of MT, CO, and northern NM I've seen.

[YakBiker]

Hey Matthew... I wouldn't worry that the race has been defined by that right turn. I'd say there's been an effort -especially on the TD site- to steer the conversation toward more uplifting aspects of the 09 race and even some early gear questions for 2010!

I know one guy who surely doesn't think the 09 TD was all about some hidden turn in MT. His name is Evan Mettie; he's an injured Iraq vet who is getting a brand new all-terrain wheelchair thanks to the money raised from my TD ride. Most of the $14,000 I raised came in after I left and is almost certainly a result of the SPOT map and blogging features on your race website. My whole town went absolutely bonkers for the race because those features make it a blast to watch. The race was in the paper or at least the sport's blog nearly every day. They even had a political editorial contrasting TD racers who don't quit under pressure and Sarah Palin who does -honest, they did-. I highly doubt we would have done so well at fund raising if I'd just anonymously ITT'd the route. That's a big deal and you should feel good about not only the race itself but how it changes peoples lives -racer and otherwise-.

Eric

[Slowerthensnot]

Hey Matthew... I wouldn't worry that the race has been defined by that right turn. I'd say there's been an effort -especially on the TD site- to steer the conversation toward more uplifting aspects of the 09 race and even some early gear questions for 2010!

I know one guy who surely doesn't think the 09 TD was all about some hidden turn in MT. His name is Evan Mettie; he's an injured Iraq vet who is getting a brand new all-terrain wheelchair thanks to the money raised from my TD ride. Most of the $14,000 I raised came in after I left and is almost certainly a result of the SPOT map and blogging features on your race website. My whole town went absolutely bonkers for the race because those features make it a blast to watch. The race was in the paper or at least the sport's blog nearly every day. They even had a political editorial contrasting TD racers who don't quit under pressure and Sarah Palin who does -honest, they did-. I highly doubt we would have done so well at fund raising if I'd just anonymously ITT'd the route. That's a big deal and you should feel good about not only the race itself but how it changes peoples lives -racer and otherwise-.

Eric

Awesome....  I think one of the many rad things about this route are the people i've met both on route and through the interweb....

[rabo]

I'm too surprised, that especially Deanna Adams does not clarify anything on her blog. Still a great performance but  the spot for first fixed seems still open.
I'm amazed that XO-1.org does not apologize to Matt, after a response like that.
Congratulations to Matt , for winning and setting up an event like this. Hope the future will be nice to it.

[dkahern1958]

no worries, it was a bit surly of me so say. sorry. perhaps my fatigue with that single right turn coming to define `09 racing is showing.

I have been follower of the race for years now and there is no way that right turn defines the race.  The word for this year is perseverance.  I'm sorry about those that missed the turn not being "official" finishers, but that's how things go.  They all still got to go through an amazing experience and that can't be taken away.  If anyone needs that validation of an official finish the start line will be drawn up again next year.  Have at it.   

Resist the forces that would make this event more complicated and rule heavy.  Keep it simple and straightforward and maintain that ethos of absolute personal responsibility.  Otherwise it may just turn into another event circus many of us can't afford. 

I have ridden in one of Kostman's events and I must say his tirade was unfortunate and disappointing.  I hope he has reconsidered some of his comments.