Tour Divide 2010

[phil_rad]

Qualifers would be a bummer for those of us who live overseas.
I can't imagine the TDR exploding like Leadville, It's just too huge, the distance, logistics and time invovled. Not to mention the $$$.
Having Grand Departs on different day might be a solution to growing numbers. The idea of North-South, South-North start is way cool.

Just my thoughts.

Phil

P.S. I still have my borrowed spot tracker; where can I send the thing back to?

[Jilleo]

IMO the divide is a qualifier for ctr or azt 750.

In full agreement with this one. My first multiday race was the Iditarod - although quite a bit shorter than the Tour Divde, and very, very different, still in many ways much harder.

This is the strongest argument against requiring qualifying "races." The Iditarod Dog Sled Race qualifiers are much like the long race, only shorter. In the case of the existing multiday mountain bike races in North America, there isn't a single one that is all that much like another. So none of them really prepare one for the others.

But there is something to be said about having some multiday experience - RAAM, week-long tour in Australia, anything. It's certainly an advantage over coming into Divide racing almost completely cold save for a few weekend overnight training rides. But as a requirement? Yeah, difficult to establish, impossible to enforce.

Either way, you had 48 riders this year and now there's a big popular movie out about the Tour Divide. Good luck finding a sustainable way to accomodate the masses! :-)

[keywee]

I've got a dyno hub question in followup to the pivvay/keywee exchange in replies #813-817.

You describe that the power output of the SON 20R (AKA Delux) was too low at slow MTB speed for full brightness from a Supernova E3 Triple, hence you advise Alfine for off-road use.

But that hub is intended for 16" or 20" wheels. Smaller wheel = more RPM per a given speed, hence that hub is tuned for more efficient, but lower output at slower RPM. I suppose you might choose to use this hub on 700c for the added efficiency at the price of needing higher speed for a given power output.

But what about the SON 28S, the disc-brake hub for 'normal' 700C/29er wheels? Should we expect full power at 10-15kph from a Supernova E3 Triple, or not? Peter White's SON description leads one to believe you get full power above 5.5mph, but your experience seems to conflict, unless the difference is due to a 20R vs 28S on a 700C wheel. http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp

Did you go with 20R for efficiency, then switch to Alfine for brightness? Might you have gotten better brightness and efficiency (and durability) with the SON 28S in the first place? Or would you argue that the Alfine is more efficient than the SON 28S at 700C and slow MTB speeds. That would be interesting.

Thanks!  I'm trying to decide myself - I like the lifetime durability of the SON vs Alfine, but I want full brightness at 10-15KPH singletrack speed.

Good questions.

I have had the Alfine on my training road bike all winter. That means I'm generally running a bit faster than off-road. The wheel I had built around the Alfine was too heavy and not tubeless compatible. For that reason, I decided to build a new wheel for MTB-only usage, and I liked the idea of dropping 200g in the hub alone. I didn't have time to test the setup properly and only discovered the day before the race that there was a big difference in the speed at which the E3 lit up fully.

I understand that the 20R was originally for 20" wheels, but that stems from the days of Halogen lights. This is also the reason for the rename to Delux as they can power LED lights in a 700C wheel. However, I have a bit more rubber on my 700C rim (29") and that exacerbates the problem. The SON 28S would have been similar in performance and weight to the Alfine (based on epinions), so that was never an option. According to one test I read "somewhere", the 28S is as efficient as the Alfine (or at least the 3N-80), so this could be your answer to singletrack lighting. Remember, it's very important to be able to look around corners, something that's not possible with bar mounted lights.

If I were to choose for a dynamo setup, I would definitely use the Delux/20R in combination with the Edelux light for a TDR like race/ride. For more technical MTBing, I would use the Alfine + E3 triple, plus head light.

As far as durability goes, I can't say yet how good the Alfine is. Maybe after another wet/salty winter.

[Aidan]

Regarding rules and such, I think "fair" is a difficult concept on the Divide. With so much that could happen, some things will. And a rider may be delayed out of reaching AW within the time they were aiming for, without it being their fault. But that's part of the beauty: you get what you get (not necessarily what you feel like you deserve) and you deal with it. Mechanicals, drastic weather changes in a short period of time, small-town services being unexpectedly shut and so on.

So maybe the "fair" that matters is only at the start-line i.e. simpler rules. No getting into cars seems simple enough, even for a under-prepared oaf like me to figure out.

I don't think having two starts on consecutive days would achieve the desired outcome of reducing the impact on the trail, though. 1 day is not very much with a wide variation in speeds so 49 followed by 49 would looks an awful lot like 98 together after a few days.

The N/S and S/N starts do sound like fun, though. We could joust in Colorado!

[BobM]

I don't think having two starts on consecutive days would achieve the desired outcome of reducing the impact on the trail, though. 1 day is not very much with a wide variation in speeds so 49 followed by 49 would looks an awful lot like 98 together after a few days.

Hi Aidan,

I think the "desired outcome" is more just to avoid bureaucratic paperwork/permissions.  Most of the route is on public roads anyway, and even the trails are not limited access.

How did the cow decoy work out?  Did it attract any?

Bob

[Aidan]

My cow went from standing on my bars in Banff to lying down for the remainder of the journey. She seemed to scare the other cows that I saw though... maybe they're scared of BSE.

When I said impact, I didn't just mean on the dirt. I also meant on the goodwill of the businesses on the trail. Having a few sopping wet bikers turn up on your doorstep is interesting and fun when they're riding a crazy race. I can imagine it would get pretty annoying by the 90th rider.

[BobM]

My cow went from standing on my bars in Banff to lying down for the remainder of the journey. She seemed to scare the other cows that I saw though... maybe they're scared of BSE.

When I said impact, I didn't just mean on the dirt. I also meant on the goodwill of the businesses on the trail. Having a few sopping wet bikers turn up on your doorstep is interesting and fun when they're riding a crazy race. I can imagine it would get pretty annoying by the 90th rider.

Good point.  However, I live in a former copper mining area that now depends on tourism for much of its income and I can assure you that anyone, however dressed or dirty, is more than welcome at the local businesses so long as they bring their money/plastic.

90 bike racers (plus the additional tourers who are inspired by the race) could be just what some of these small town establishments need to remain viable.

Just a thought.

Bob

EDIT:  This presumes that the aforementioned racers adhere to the self-support ethic and do not expect businesses to rescue them by reopening or providing free services.

[ScottM]

What better way to hoe that row than mano y mano? While we're at it, let's remind John Nobile how motivating grand depart dynamics can be. Perhaps Pete Basinger will finally come out for the full monty? We know Jay P is itching to return too. Talk about a great race. Kurt Refsnider's in for `11 and Joe Meiser too (rumored). Dave Harris is ripe. I bet we could get Scott Morris--even Curiak--to come back then. Heck, such a party might even seal the deal on the magnanimous Chad Brown's Divide wager. Think of all that histrionics you'd be giving up.

Haha, keep dreaming! 

If all of the above sign on for '11 (or any other year), I will throw out my book of excuses and join the fray.  Would be fun.

[jimfab]

quote author=Aidan link=topic=836.msg11608#msg11608 date=1279195417]
My cow went from standing on my bars in Banff to lying down for the remainder of the journey. She seemed to scare the other cows that I saw though... maybe they're scared of BSE.

Love that cow!

[DaveH]

Haha, keep dreaming! 

If all of the above sign on for '11 (or any other year), I will throw out my book of excuses and join the fray.  Would be fun.

Ditto what Scott said.

And, yes I am ripe but that has more to do with hygiene.

[Mathewsen]

Ditto what Scott said.

And, yes I am ripe but that has more to do with hygiene.

Perfect DH. Smelling yeasty is half the TD battle. i'll accept that as an LOI and begin working on Pete B. Thru Pete I will get to MC. JayP needs no prodding. So...that leaves ChadB. Perhaps I can entise him by announcing that TD has begun unofficial inquiry into a route change off the back side of Boreas Pass that will run the course down the legendary 8mi mostly-downhill singletrack known as 'Gold Dust'. It pops out in Como right back on the route.

[Marshal]

In full agreement with this one. My first multiday race was the Iditarod - although quite a bit shorter than the Tour Divde, and very, very different, still in many ways much harder.

This is the strongest argument against requiring qualifying "races." The Iditarod Dog Sled Race qualifiers are much like the long race, only shorter. In the case of the existing multiday mountain bike races in North America, there isn't a single one that is all that much like another. So none of them really prepare one for the others.

But there is something to be said about having some multiday experience - RAAM, week-long tour in Australia, anything. It's certainly an advantage over coming into Divide racing almost completely cold save for a few weekend overnight training rides. But as a requirement? Yeah, difficult to establish, impossible to enforce.

Either way, you had 48 riders this year and now there's a big popular movie out about the Tour Divide. Good luck finding a sustainable way to accomodate the masses! :-)

No multi-day experience?? It is the wrong/hard way to do the TDR, but it can be done………….

Mathew Arnold (youngest racer this yr at 29 , finished in 21:20:10) and had zero multi-day experience before this yrs TDR.  He told me he saw the movie and a month or so later was up in Banff for the start.  We rode together a day and a half at the beginning and then again during the last week. Mathew is a strong and accomplished rider/racer but his lack of multi-day experience was very obvious at the start.  He seemed a bit lost and overwhelmed and was learning as he went.  He put in a lot of bonus miles and struggled a bit with the long hours.

However by the finish he was so calm, solid and efficient, the transformation was very noticeable, night & day if you will.  He caught me for good at the top of Marshall’s Pass and then from there to Pie Town he slowly reeled in the two racers ahead of us with a calm determination that’s the perfect mental perspective for the TDR. (I tagged along best I could and benefited greatly from his calm, steady approach)

If Matt L ever gets his ‘dream’ field of top contenders to the line in the same yr Mathew A could be right in there as strong ‘dark horse’ contender.  He’s not a TDR or multi-day rookie now and a TDR vet has a huge huge built in advantage over any TDR rookie, multi-day experience or not…………….

[EMathy]

FWIW, i got a call from parks canada the day before the grand depart inquiring about the race. I silver-tongued my way thru for 2010 but it's possible we may be held rigidly to 49 racers for a grand depart (read: a cut-off) in order to dwell below permit requirements.

it's hard to imagine enforcing a cut-off for a non-race but we may have to find a way if LOIs try to go north of that number. I hope they don't, honestly, as more racers than 2010 is too much to handle; too much for the route and too much to organize on a strictly volunteer basis. Boulton creek store must have been absolutely pillaged by the time the lanterne rouge left on opening day this year.

Yeah, I was wondering what the after effects would be of this year's massive field. Sooner or later, if the Tour Divide keeps growing like it has been, some kind of control needs to be put in place. It's unavoidable. Otherwise it will go from being viewed as charming and quirky by the locals to annoying and dangerous.

Speaking as one who has already gotten June 5 - July 5, 2011 off from work for the Tour Divide, I plan on getting my LOI in at 12:01 am on 12/21.

With that said, if for some reason I don't make the cut, I'll plan on starting an ITT June 8th. Slap me on the back of the head and say "Hi" when you blow by me!

Great job this year, as always. Thank you for taking on the organizational duties (hazards?) again and again like you have! You're the man!

[DaveH]

Marshal (who still has #*&@ sore  @#^^% )

Still?

Damn, there must be some damage down there, oof.

If I make good on the LOI Matthew accepted it would have to be done on a SS.  Primary reason is my butt never hurts on the single!

[Marshal]

Still?

Damn, there must be some damage down there, oof.

If I make good on the LOI Matthew accepted it would have to be done on a SS.  Primary reason is my butt never hurts on the single!

I never, ever, ever thought I would say this but I am thinking of experimenting with a SS, some for just fun, some for the saddle sore issue (I hope to get my 1st post TDR ride in this week end) but mostly for something new & different to me

That said, without going into all the gory details, my saddle sore problems were more related to me not getting my fancy swanky leather saddle positioned correctly and the center cut section trimmed properly.  Had I done so I would have probably been fine.  (in my own defense I did but in 400-600 miles with two ‘3-day, 2 night’ sessions in on that saddle and thought I had it nailed)

Also I think running without a back pack has as much benefit as SS saddle sore wise and is one reason I was able to fight thru my saddle issues/mistakes.


As far as SS’s and the TDR in general, I think a SS could win the TDR outright under the right circumstances and with the right tactics/rider.  But all else being equal a geared setup will always have a “small” but real edge for this particular race/route imo

However I really believe the biggest issue(s) for an outright win of the TDR (amongst experienced, strong multi day racers willing to ‘race’ the whole distance/time) is not bike or gear choices (within reason) but rather route/logistical knowledge coupled with the right amount of determination. 

In other words the two biggest factors, imo, (for the “strong/experienced” multi day racer are):
1: laser like focus on ‘racing’ dawn to dusk, beginning to end
2: and to a slightly lesser degree route pre-prep (or better yet actual route knowledge), this knowledge is key, key, key for making up time, making a break, running light and getting to good bivy/rest spots etc etc

all other choices/factors pale in comparison to these two imo

oh, and also I would (will?) love to watch your Spot on the TDR in 2011!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[krefs]

Whoa, I missed all the race aftermath discussion while I was busy imploding on the CT.  A few thoughts:

-I've got to agree with the Plesko's sentiment that if I step into a car, my race would feel like it's over.  Unfortunately, some situations (primarily mechanicals) are completely unavoidable, and letting bad luck completely ruin one's race after so much has been invested is tough to stomach.  I think the option of hitching a ride is reasonable, but forward progress should not be allowed. 

-Bummer about the Parks Canada call.  A cap of 49 would be disappointing, but it is what it is.  Any sort of qualifications would really change the feel of the event, but this is, after all, intended to be a race.  I realize that "race" means something different to everyone involved, but if riders aren't there with the intent of riding the GDR as fast as possible, they could simply start the following day on their own as another big crowd. 

-But the TD a qualifier for the AZTR?  Dream on, Matthew.  Racing the full AZT makes the GDR feel like a cake walk (though a very long one...). 

-And as for the prospects of who may or may not show up in Banff in 2011, I am hoping to see a group of front runners capable of driving one another into the ground on their way to a sub-17 day winning time.  The Trackleaders gambling endeavor better be up and running by then. Matthew is right...let's start egging on some of the aforementioned people and see who can be talked into joining the party.  DaveH, you're first     (not sure the boxing guys are quite fitting, but oh well.)

[SimonK]

Interesting to hear the Parks department finally noticed what was going on. Down here, the Department of Conservation gave us a terse call just three days into the inaugural Kiwi Brevet. Once they realised there was no entry fee, they were OK with it all (but the 64 riders is likely to double next time).

I agree that organising a qualifying system would be a pain in the arse - not what a volunteer unorganiser needs when they plan to sit on the saddle for 17 days. An alternative (especially if you want to focus on a faster field) is to introduce a fairly stiff time limit. Then scare people off by suggesting they won't make the cut-offs if they can't do an off-road century in less than 16 hour (i.e. give people the info to self-qualify).

The idea of a north-south/south-north challenge has enough appeal to have me thinking about returning. I'm assuming the scenery looks quite different from the south, and the navigational challenge would be interesting. You could change the rules slightly so that riders from the south have to ride the NM alternates, but could use a couple of the northern ones (hint: the island park rail trail detour).

At the end of the day, if people the Tour Divide field is overflowing, there is an alternative event.

[robinb]

it would be cool to track a racer's Banff - AW time and their AW - Banff time (in separate yrs).  Two separate 'stages' , lowest combined time wins the overall GC.  As any stage race, there are those looking only for 'stage' wins, and those looking only at the GC.

as an added bonus - when convincing your significant other to let you do the race, you are (subtly) getting permission to get out on the divide twice!

[bruce.b]

>>it would be cool to track a racer's Banff - AW time and their AW - Banff time (in separate yrs).  Two separate 'stages'<<

   Or a single long stage, Banff to AW to Banff. That would thin the crowd. It would be interesting to see how much the race changes when it's twice as long. Could be done as a ITT. It would eliminate the problem of getting a ride out of AW.

    bruce.b

[Newfydog]

Two comments--

Parks Canada may indeed be a pain in the butt, but there is no reason not to put more people on the route.  Most of the route was made for much heavier duty use than a bike.  (I'm Canadian, lived on the old route in Fernie)

Eric Lobeck was the second fastest rider out there.  He proved it, and while you may have rules and a results sheet, they don't mean much in a race with no prizes and no official status.  You could not disqualify him if you wanted.  He did his race, and did it well.  You can't administer away his accomplishment.