Tour Divide 2010

[Marshal]

Two comments--

Parks Canada may indeed be a pain in the butt, but there is no reason not to put more people on the route.  Most of the route was made for much heavier duty use than a bike.  (I'm Canadian, lived on the old route in Fernie)

Eric Lobeck was the second fastest rider out there.  He proved it, and while you may have rules and a results sheet, they don't mean much in a race with no prizes and no official status.  You could not disqualify him if you wanted.  He did his race, and did it well.  You can't administer away his accomplishment.

Hi Newfydog, before I go on let me say that I read your other 6 posts here on bikepacking.net and you are obviously an experienced cyclist with some in-dept touring background. (And perhaps a future TDR racer?)  That said I could not tell if you have much background in the rather obscure world of  DIY self-supported multi-day racing so I am going to run a couple of thoughts by you.

If you dig a bit you will see that in DIY self supported multi-day racing, just like any competitive human endeavor, there are arguments and disputes about ‘rules’. And the rule in Eric’s regulation may very well deserve an in-depth review for future TDR’s.  However, your comment implies a common but flawed argument And that is that the rules (and results) can’t really matter much because the organization behind the race some how lacks official status and there is not a prize..

So---while I understand and agree with the ‘sentiment’ in your comment about Eric Lobeck, (in so many ways I feel I finished 8th, not 6th) I would like to gently point out how this and most of the rest of your comment’s logic is flawed.

The ‘status’ of  the organization behind the TDR is totally irrelevant to the importance of the rules or results (see all the media articles, movie, forum buzz, Spot fanatics, racer obsession, money spent, etc etc, and all this is always finished off with talk about the RESULTS, not status) .

And the fact that there is not a ‘prize’ is also irrelevant to the rules or results of the TDR.  Most types of recreational racing do not offer a prize of real monetary value, or even a prize at all, for all the various classes and ranking’s.  However, they pretty much all have results based on some rules, whether it’s the Boston Marathon with tons of status or the local 5K or XC race with zero status. 
Regardless of status or prizes, every weekend, using a common set of rules, you can find thousands runners, cyclists, swimmers etc out racing for that ‘important result’,

On a different note I am not sure that Eric was ‘second’ fastest, had he not broken his bike beyond common field repair he might have won, we will never know. Also note that Eric was not ‘disqualified’ in the classic sense as you imply.  And his accomplishment was not ‘administered away’.  Unfortunately the current TDR rule set required that his official placing or result be regulated.  However you, and any one else, can see his finish time/accomplishment, it’s posted up right there as part of the “official” results, on the “official” TDR web site.


Anyway, with out a common set of rules that are followed and used by all the competitors, and enforced as needed, the  results would become much less important, even meaningless no matter how much official organization and/or status is involved—think TdF

[Chauncey Matthews]

Parks Canada may indeed be a pain in the butt, but there is no reason not to put more people on the route.  Most of the route was made for much heavier duty use than a bike.  (I'm Canadian, lived on the old route in Fernie)

I was thinking the same thing when I read the "too many racers for the route" comments. How can 40, 50, or 60 riders going through make any difference on roads that see constant moto/atv/non racing riders? I'll bet the Parks dept just wanted to make sure they weren't missing the fees that are paid by "official" events.
And I'll bet anyone who has a business on the route would love to see more racers desperate to buy food/rooms/whatever.

[KootenayB]

Having grown up in or next to Canada's mountain national parks, and worked for Parks Canada, I can perhaps provide a little insight on what ISN'T Parks' issue with a "large" group of cyclists starting a race in Banff.

It isn't due to valid concerns over trail damage on that short Spray River/Goat Creek fireroad sections.  Multi-use activities, including a commercial horse riding company, use these old roads commonly and the damage from >49 cyclists is not a defensible Parks concern.  The short Bryant Creek section is also mostly a solid, gravel/rock-based old fireroad so same there, except to be fair there are some softer "singletrack" sections near the Watridge Lake end of this brief pop into BNP.  Again many hikers, bikers, and horse riders use this section as well.

Over the last couple decades, Parks is primarily concerned with: liability; understanding how to manage it's oft confused mandate of "Preservation" and "Use"; and managing politics between the Wardens Service and entrenched commercial interests in the park.  I could generate a huge list of issues and examples, but suffice it to say that at the end of the day it is likely that if Parks Canada objects to this race occurring in BNP then there will be little the organizers can do to sway this position.  Sorry, just giving my experienced opinion on this issue.

Good news is that there are plenty of other good race start locations, including Canmore which is right next door to Banff.  That would likely necessitate a hard 5 km climb through Whiteman's Pass (it is often used as a local hill climb TT) right out of the gate, but nobody said the TD was easy!

[Newfydog]

I would like to gently point out how this and most of the rest of your comment’s logic is flawed.


Anyway, with out a common set of rules that are followed and used by all the competitors, and enforced as needed, the  results would become much less important, even meaningless

 

Hi Trail,

Thanks for your reply.  Congratulations on your 8th, or 6th place, and I'm sure your opinion is more valid than mine, seeing that you actually raced the thing. However, I'm not too concerned about whether my beliefs are flawed in your eyes or not. It is what I feel, so I stated it. I'll be riding from Frisco to Abiquiu in a few weeks, and I'll be thinking about how Matt came through there at mach speed, and a fine young man from Steamboat was nearly as fast.

To me, all that was achieved was that the fine young man from Steamboat was branded a cheater, left with a bad taste, and the official results became quite meaningless.

[mtbcast]

"Branded a cheater" is far from the truth. He was relegated based on a rule. And everyone concerned, including those organizing the event, see and understand that he had very little choice. This was less about accountability and more about staying fixed to the rules. Yet, everyone acknowledges that the rules can be flawed in some cases yet they also have merit. Erik rode a great race and it's a shame he was relegated. But I don't think anyone, least of all Matthew, would view him as a cheater.

[Mathewsen]

 Hi Trail,

Thanks for your reply.  Congratulations on your 8th, or 6th place, and I'm sure your opinion is more valid than mine, seeing that you actually raced the thing. However, I'm not too concerned about whether my beliefs are flawed in your eyes or not. It is what I feel, so I stated it. I'll be riding from Frisco to Abiquiu in a few weeks, and I'll be thinking about how Matt came through there at mach speed, and a fine young man from Steamboat was nearly as fast.

To me, all that was achieved was that the fine young man from Steamboat was branded a cheater, left with a bad taste, and the official results became quite meaningless.

I see someone has posted as i typed, but at the risk of redundancy, w/ out mods., here's my response anyway...

Now, now...
Let's stop this volley over rules. I thought we weren't going to get meyered in rules on this thread?
TD never uses or utters the word 'cheater' when people get relegated for rules violations. Indeed, intent, is not all that important. It's more black and white than that for good reason. 'Intent' is a place for the violator to dwell on her/his own.

The rules are not really that complicated. Emotion is complicated.

[BobM]

To me, all that was achieved was that the fine young man from Steamboat was branded a cheater, left with a bad taste, and the official results became quite meaningless.

He is definitely NOT a cheater - cheaters do not act openly, they try to cover up what they do because they know they are doing wrong.  Erik was completely up-front about the choices he made, including his reasons for doing so.  He ran his race according to his own principles and is apparently satisfied in the way that he completed the route.  He did not, however, complete it under the same rule set as the others, and so to place him in the GC would have in fact made the official results meaningless as his finishing time under the rules of the race would have been some unknowable amount of time greater than his posted result.

[Newfydog]

Just look at the result sheet....there it is, singled out, he did something wrong.  That's the impression anyone will get when they look at it.

A more enlightened approach would have been similar to what they did in the Tour de France, when Armstrong took a shotcut across a field.  A clear and undeniable violation of the rules, they waived it, because it was unavoidable. and he gained no advantage over the other racers.

[Slowerthensnot]

Just look at the result sheet....there it is, singled out, he did something wrong.  That's the impression anyone will get when they look at it.

A more enlightened approach would have been similar to what they did in the Tour de France, when Armstrong took a shotcut across a field.  A clear and undeniable violation of the rules, they waived it, because it was unavoidable. and he gained no advantage over the other racers.

Ummm this isn't the tdf...

[bruce.b]

>>To me, all that was achieved was that the fine young man from Steamboat was branded a cheater, left with a bad taste, and the official results became quite meaningless.<<

     Newfydog,  Eric posted on this thread a while back hoping to stop further discussion. Why not respect his wishes and just stop? Trying to restart this argument serves no purpose.
     Your statement above is so far over the top that it's laughable. You are the only person who used the word *cheater*, no one else called him this. People aren't all simpletons, it's probable that the people who felt he should be relegated still were just as impressed with Eric's ride as you were. I know that's how I feel.
      I notice that only you and a couple others with similar feelings are trying to restart this useless rules topic, against Eric's wishes. Why is that?

bruce.b

[Newfydog]

Ummm this isn't the tdf...

Well, in the first lecture I received on how I should think and feel, I was told:

"Anyway, with out a common set of rules that are followed and used by all the competitors, and enforced as needed, the  results would become much less important, even meaningless no matter how much official organization and/or status is involved—think TdF"

I was replying to that

[protoceratops]

Bob M,

How do the rules of the race generate unknowable times???

[krefs]

Enough looking backwards and arguing about things that are simply clear as day to anyone close to this thing. 

How about more talk about next year?  I'm hearing rattlings from two would-be rookies seriously considering making a June appearance in Banff...one accomplished guy who would be among the strongest in any given year, and one stubborn woman who could probably give almost any of the female vets a run for their money.  I'm not at liberty to name any names yet, but I wanted to throw this out there.  2011 could be a hell of a race. 

[Marshal]

 

Hi Trail,

Thanks for your reply.  Congratulations on your 8th, or 6th place, and I'm sure your opinion is more valid than mine, seeing that you actually raced the thing. However, I'm not too concerned about whether my beliefs are flawed in your eyes or not. It is what I feel, so I stated it. I'll be riding from Frisco to Abiquiu in a few weeks, and I'll be thinking about how Matt came through there at mach speed, and a fine young man from Steamboat was nearly as fast.

To me, all that was achieved was that the fine young man from Steamboat was branded a cheater, left with a bad taste, and the official results became quite meaningless.

Hi Newfydog,

Everyone has opinions, we all got em right?  And I don’t question or find fault with your beliefs, opinions or sentiment about Eric’s situation.  And as I mentioned, I share much of the same basic sentiment regarding Eric’s situation.

However the logic you laid out in your 1st comment: “and while you may have rules and a results sheet, they don't mean much in a race with no prizes and no official status” seems to be obviously flawed, regardless of ones opinions, emotions, feelings believes etc.

Perhaps if you can temporarily set aside your sentiment for Eric’s individual situation and re-read my response from a wider perspective you will see that I was mostly trying to make an argument about the importance of results & rules vs an events official or perceived status and a lack of finish prizes per your statement.

Anyway enough rule jousting---

I think you have picked a great section of the Great Divide Route to tour!  For me personally, from Marshall’s pass in to Abiquiu was the most enjoyable part of the whole GD route.  By the time you reach NM you will be well settled into your personal daily routine and hence able to fully enjoy the rugged beauty of the Brazos Ridge area. Perhaps you could post up your trip here on bikepacker.net when you finish.

Enjoy your time out there!

[Mathewsen]

Marshall’s pass in to Abiquiu was the most enjoyable part of the whole GD route.  

Amen! Saguache county just rocks, and i echo your sentiment about that entire section--though I would throw in polvadera mesa for good measure.

Patti and Gary Blakley are living the good life on the edge of SLV.

Did any other racers besides me notice the amazing transition into pristine (often old-growth) spruce-fir/aspen country after Salida? Such a wonderful transition this year after riding thru 2.5 states worth of absolutely pillaged pine forest. I personally thought whoever the FS has contracted to remove beetle kill are giving no regard to the way they leave the state of FS roads or clear-cuts post harvest. I almost didn't recognize the route in many places.

[redtabby]

[...]
How about more talk about next year?
[...]

One factor already developing for next year's race is a La Nina:
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/enso_advisory/ensodisc.html

I hope Blaine is interested and able to follow-up with a 3rd consecutive appearance for TD '11. 
As others have commented on, route knowledge and previous experience in the daily rhythms
of divide racing are particularly important for this event.  A strong rider's competitiveness can
actually increase over the years because far more is being tested than raw V02max.

[Singlespeedpunk]

One factor already developing for next year's race is a La Nina:
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/enso_advisory/ensodisc.html

So what does that mean for 2011? Would a UK racer with years of mud / foul weather (ie "summer") riding have the edge?

SSP

[BobM]

Bob M,

How do the rules of the race generate unknowable times???

Sorry, I was unclear.  If someone finishes while following all the rules, they have an official time that is posted and compared to all other riders.  If someone bypasses a rule for whatever reason, they also have a finishing time, but it is generally faster then it would have been had they followed all the rules, so the time they would have posted "under the rules" is unknowable and they are relegated out of the GC.

Bob

[BobM]

So what does that mean for 2011? Would a UK racer with years of mud / foul weather (ie "summer") riding have the edge?

SSP

UK racers always have the edge because of their attitude (blatant stereotype).  Cheerfulness in the face of adversity and a spirit of resolve when faced with a hard task are useful in this race.

[Singlespeedpunk]

UK racers always have the edge because of their attitude (blatant stereotype).  Cheerfulness in the face of adversity and a spirit of resolve when faced with a hard task are useful in this race.

I would like to think so but trust me I can throw my toys out the pram' with the best of them....I just tend to do it in private as any thing else just wouldn't be British

From this years weather Sealskinz socks and Gripper gloves with silk liners are on the list. Anything that can make summer mesh shoes "Multiple Welsh bogs in January crossings" proof or keep my hands warm carrying a bike over Thorung La at 17,600ft in the snow is worth its weight in gold/calories/beer

SSP