Tour Divide 2016 - race discussion thread

[dp]

Hal is one of the riders we look forward to seeing each year at Montana High Country Lodge near Polaris, MT.  His up beat attitude and smile is contagious!

I love that picture of Hal. That smile says it all.

-dp

[kiwidave]

Sounds like Guy Martin needs to go ride Tour Divide a 2nd time then? to keep you all happy.

No Pete - he needs to ride it a FIRST TIME before he can claim he has ridden it at all. Other years people were quickly relegated for missing sections - not sure what happened this time round with relegations as I was racing. I'll be in touch with Scott on it. Guy seems like a nice person and I helped him out with setting up his Spot, but it is not legit to claim a finish if you don't ride the correct route. Lael was relegated in 2015 for less deviations. I went back into Butte when I realised I was on the road for 5km and not on the dirt track which runs parallel.

Bring back Toby Gadd.

[Yagi]

Toby isn't coming back.  We just need less pussies on here to begin with.  If you're going to call somebody out, just call them out.  Toby's a good friend of mine, and it'd make him proud if you just spoke up for yourselves.  Do you really need a dedicated forum protagonist/antagonist?

[kiwidave]

Toby isn't coming back.  We just need less pussies on here to begin with.  If you're going to call somebody out, just call them out.  Toby's a good friend of mine, and it'd make him proud if you just spoke up for yourselves.  Do you really need a dedicated forum protagonist/antagonist?

Yagi - That's what I'm doing. Terry Smith/Guy Martin should be relegated. But given that I was racing the TD this year and finished in 25 days I'm a bit behind what went on. (BTW: Toby knows who I am and I've told him directly that his contributions were valuable and missed).

I am surprised that it didn't happen after TS (GM) missed Spray Lakes by Scott or Matt. Or after missing Brush Mountain or the flat route out of Steamboat. In past years it was pretty much the admins call on those types of things without anyone needing to call it out. Maybe they're busy with other things to notice .... but the CDT miss was pretty clear and it was right up the sharp end when a lot of eyes were on it.

It takes a lot of courage (which Toby had) to call some things out as there are potential repercussions. Everyone likes a celeb and everyone likes a winner ... so it is really hard to say "so and so wrote on their blog they asked for water" or "so and so asked for help out of hours at a business" or "so and so had a non commercial delivery mid race" sitting at home in our armchairs.

However, as I raced the TD this year I've no qualms on calling it out. I rode Spray Lakes in the mud and rain, I rode Brush Mountain in 35C+ heat, I rode CDT in the dark - so I think I'm qualified to comment.

[Yagi]

I absolutely appreciate you, kiwidave, and I wasn't trying to say you're a coward.  I'd like to think that I'd call people out, too, but without actually racing, I don't feel like it's my place to do so. Your typings sounded like a direct call-out to me, so I wasn't trying to call you out for not calling the other out.

I also think it's strange that Matt and Scott don't go further, despite having established the ethics for the race. Maybe they relied heavily on Toby's "passion," too?

Take it light. 

Steve

[Flinch]

A few years back the forum had a raging series re ethics of the race. One of the top points made was that racers must call out others for infractions, rather than Matt or Scott doing so. I respect and appreciate Scott and Matt tremendously, but do feel they should be consistent when relegating racers (ie colored dots, listings as 'off route' etc.) - if done for one, done for all. [What am I saying! Crap, next year my dot will be black.  ] Matt almost blew a fifty amp fuse for all the grief he got for being a referee - not fair and can't blame him. I don't know Guy Martin. Have no ill will against him, and no idea why he followed the route he did. Just riding the darn thing is quite an accomplishment.

While I've tried twice, and failed both times, I know what it means to follow the ethics and rules of the race. I feel that any true racer should be obsessed with studying the race and ethos thereof. As I've said, the greatest honor possible as a racer is declaring your own violations, if any. No one likes a snitch. However, no one likes to have followed the rules and then have others who don't claim equal honor and 'glory'.

In the end, each racer carries the inner struggles of their race, but also bears the outer flak of others. The TD is not a collection of ITT's - rather a community loosely bound by mutual respect, understanding of the rules and ethics, and honor. When you enter the arena, you take on the aura those who honorably have come before. Those 'ghost' dots can be felt on route.

So watcha saying, chatty man? Just this - Dave is right on, the community must self-police, and no one should get panties too far embedded when we discuss these things among ourselves. (Where did Toby Gadd go? Ethical Gadd, or E-Gadd for short - ha)

Hope to meet you all next year!

[Kiwi Pete]

Sorry you're right Kiwidave.

The thing for me is why all the short cuts (easy cuts off route)?



Kiwi Pete from the Singletrack

[robotfury]

Guys. I think we can relax a little with Guy Martin in terms of accusations to the person - such as the celebrity stuff. I don't mean we shouldn't call out the result and need for relegation, but leave it at that. What ever his official classification is, that is up to Matt Lee et al and it should be addressed. Thanks to the call outs here, probably will be. Everyone I talked to during the race seemed to be pretty clear on Guy going off route and wondering why.  I think it is important that other racers call it out too, but call it out here to Matt Lee and those who can officially relegate and do so. Like mentioned above, Lael was called out for less. I don't remember anyone insinuating motive on Lael's part.

As for Guy, I met him on the route and he is a very kind, solid dude with a solid effort and, in my opinion, was racing this as hard core has possible.  A bit naive about the route though.  Explained below. He was anything but CELEBRITY. In fact, he was quite sweet and kind in a very quirky way. He was so happy to meet other riders as he hadn't seen anyone other than Mike Hall when Mike Hall passed him, for which he kept saying - I started 3 days before him and he caught me. Guy was crushing the miles and sleeping in ditches and completely into the event.  He was humble and completely in love with the route. He was just loving being out there and the challenge of the ride. He entered as an ITT under a different name so as to avoid bringing any extra attention to the race and also to avoid adding any distraction to the grand depart. He was riding completely social media free - no phone, no wifi, no calls back home, no looking at FB or trackleaders. Perhaps to a fault. He didn't even know that people had caught on to who Terry Smith was.  He was in a complete media blackout since starting his ITT. When i met him, he said he was a mechanic from England and wanted to know how my race was going.  He was a hilarious mess though.  

Anyway, I can at least provide some information on his route mistakes. He could have done with much more race and course research. Shockingly so. Turns out, he is a complete luddite. For all that moto racing, can't navigate a FB page. For sure. When I met him in Sargents, I asked why he had been off route. No joke. He said, what do you mean, I have been following this: pulled out a 2011 Great Divide paperback. He was riding this race according to a 2011 paperback Great Divide book that he had wrapped in a plastic shopping bag and kept in his backpack.  I was speechless.  For one, I couldn't see how anyone could navigate 1000s of miles with a book.  He had a GPS, but it wasn't very stout. I think the touring Garmin. Even his phone was from the 90s. Not kidding. I am not surprised he couldn't set up his SPOT.  When I mentioned he was off route, he didn't quite get at that moment that he was riding a course from several years ago. What can I say. He was very sincere and understood he had been off course, but I am not sure he understood what that means in terms of the Tour Divide. He was very "oh shit" about it, but resigned to finish nonetheless.  I don't know what he is personally claiming, but he can certainly say that he rode A Tour Divide route in 18 days.  Just not THE 2016 route. I know. I know. Naive is not an excuse. I just wanted to contribute my interaction with him.

Rules aside, I can't help but think Guy raced this in a way Matt Lee would appreciate. Just the bare bones racing style - zero technology (phones, wifi, social media), zero hotels, sleeping in ditches and outside the entire way, constantly moving and completely immersed in the event. Just, it was on a completely retired route. 

I think Guy was racing in the spirit of the race, just the wrong route. Wasn't and isn't looking for any special treatment. I live in LA and I have met a lot of celebs and this guy is anything but.  Classification and relegation should happen, but I would relax the straw man stuff a bit. I guess maybe I would have thought the same, but I sat with him for well over an hour.  He was as bad ass as TD racers go and one of the nicest people I met on the route.

So, don't fame me, I am just saying  - nice guy, bad ass racer, solid effort, route naive and should be relegated, but ease off on characterizing him as looking for celeb treatment etc. Leave that personality stuff out of the conversation.  He put in a very respectable effort. Stellar for 2011.  Results are results and rules are rules and actions should be taken.

[jjmundt]

As soon as I learned Guy was racing under a different name, I figured he was pretty awesome.  The attempt to remain true to the spirit of the Tour in the midst of celebrity is most admirable.  It's a shame he used the wrong route...sounds like an honest mistake.

So he must have run the 2010 route (which was in his 2011 book)...as I recall, the actual 2011 route was radically different, maybe as far as Pinedale.

[flyboy]

Robotfury, the thing that makes him so popular is because he is so normal and down to earth. I gave him the benefit of the doubt in my earlier posts as I thought maybe he was doing a Stamstad rerun and that is fine and commendable. As you point out, in the finest spirit of the ride in fact. I was just confused as to why he would bother with online tracking if that was the case though. Your meeting with him explains a lot and I feel for Guy. He must have felt gutted.

Yes, he rode an incredible ride, leaving nothing in the tank. I have no doubt he followed the ethos of the race but everyone that has done the TDR knows that there is much more to this race than just riding your bike. Navigation and route knowledge make up a big portion of the challenge and many a Rookie has learnt this the hard way. They usually come back the next year to make peace with themselves.......

Well done to everyone who finished this year. It sounded like a tough grind with the weather, making it something to be especially proud of. You will all be changed forever, hopefully in a good way!!  

[mtbcast]

#‎TourDivide16‬  Bonnie Gagnon called in from Horca!

http://mtbcast.com/site2/category/td16/

[Russ Kipp]

I was not going to post anymore this season but yesterday & last night were very strange to southwest Montana.  We had rain off and on all afternoon / evening, a funnel cloud touched ground not to far from our lodge and it snowed last night.  Jim Goodyear ITT rider spent the night, as well as Touring riders Ryan Hamilton (2015 TD rider) and Nicolas Legget (2013 TD rider).  Jim was headed to the Bannack bench and Medicine Lodge area with lots of rain and snow in front of him.

[kiwidave]

Matt Lee replied that Guy WAS relegated and was informed about it by Matt. They apparently don't usually change the colours of the ITT racers which is why his dot stayed yellow.

As Dave (flyboy) says, there's a lot more to the TD than riding your bike quickly all day - that is what makes it an epic adventure and also what allows a tortoise like me stay in touch with the hares.

BTW: For the most epic missed turn check out Alex Jacobson's track out of Del Norte - his Garmin did a colour change and made the road due west the colour of the trail ... so he missed the turn to Indiana Pass and rode instead a bonus 11,000ft pass up and over before realising. And I still didn't catch him!!!

[mikepro]

So he must have run the 2010 route (which was in his 2011 book)...as I recall, the actual 2011 route was radically different, maybe as far as Pinedale.

Ah, negatory on the 2010 route association, which I raced and finished.  Just like the route does today, we went on the West side of Spray Lakes, went out to Brooks Lake after cresting Togwotee pass, went through South Pass City and Atlantic City before the basin, as well as went past Brush Mountain Lodge and then up-and-over to Clark, CO; all sections that this rider missed.  Other "older/previous" small segments of the route he did ride, as well as other "new/current" segments (such as Wamsutter).  Then, he did his own judgment thing by Lake Roberts into Silver City, which is not part of any route past or present.   No clue how TS/GM navigated.

[Kiwi Pete]

Guys. I think we can relax a little with Guy Martin in terms of accusations to the person - such as the celebrity stuff. I don't mean we shouldn't call out the result and need for relegation, but leave it at that. What ever his official classification is, that is up to Matt Lee et al and it should be addressed. Thanks to the call outs here, probably will be. Everyone I talked to during the race seemed to be pretty clear on Guy going off route and wondering why.  I think it is important that other racers call it out too, but call it out here to Matt Lee and those who can officially relegate and do so. Like mentioned above, Lael was called out for less. I don't remember anyone insinuating motive on Lael's part.

As for Guy, I met him on the route and he is a very kind, solid dude with a solid effort and, in my opinion, was racing this as hard core has possible.  A bit naive about the route though.  Explained below. He was anything but CELEBRITY. In fact, he was quite sweet and kind in a very quirky way. He was so happy to meet other riders as he hadn't seen anyone other than Mike Hall when Mike Hall passed him, for which he kept saying - I started 3 days before him and he caught me. Guy was crushing the miles and sleeping in ditches and completely into the event.  He was humble and completely in love with the route. He was just loving being out there and the challenge of the ride. He entered as an ITT under a different name so as to avoid bringing any extra attention to the race and also to avoid adding any distraction to the grand depart. He was riding completely social media free - no phone, no wifi, no calls back home, no looking at FB or trackleaders. Perhaps to a fault. He didn't even know that people had caught on to who Terry Smith was.  He was in a complete media blackout since starting his ITT. When i met him, he said he was a mechanic from England and wanted to know how my race was going.  He was a hilarious mess though.  

Anyway, I can at least provide some information on his route mistakes. He could have done with much more race and course research. Shockingly so. Turns out, he is a complete luddite. For all that moto racing, can't navigate a FB page. For sure. When I met him in Sargents, I asked why he had been off route. No joke. He said, what do you mean, I have been following this: pulled out a 2011 Great Divide paperback. He was riding this race according to a 2011 paperback Great Divide book that he had wrapped in a plastic shopping bag and kept in his backpack.  I was speechless.  For one, I couldn't see how anyone could navigate 1000s of miles with a book.  He had a GPS, but it wasn't very stout. I think the touring Garmin. Even his phone was from the 90s. Not kidding. I am not surprised he couldn't set up his SPOT.  When I mentioned he was off route, he didn't quite get at that moment that he was riding a course from several years ago. What can I say. He was very sincere and understood he had been off course, but I am not sure he understood what that means in terms of the Tour Divide. He was very "oh shit" about it, but resigned to finish nonetheless.  I don't know what he is personally claiming, but he can certainly say that he rode A Tour Divide route in 18 days.  Just not THE 2016 route. I know. I know. Naive is not an excuse. I just wanted to contribute my interaction with him.

Rules aside, I can't help but think Guy raced this in a way Matt Lee would appreciate. Just the bare bones racing style - zero technology (phones, wifi, social media), zero hotels, sleeping in ditches and outside the entire way, constantly moving and completely immersed in the event. Just, it was on a completely retired route. 

I think Guy was racing in the spirit of the race, just the wrong route. Wasn't and isn't looking for any special treatment. I live in LA and I have met a lot of celebs and this guy is anything but.  Classification and relegation should happen, but I would relax the straw man stuff a bit. I guess maybe I would have thought the same, but I sat with him for well over an hour.  He was as bad ass as TD racers go and one of the nicest people I met on the route.

So, don't fame me, I am just saying  - nice guy, bad ass racer, solid effort, route naive and should be relegated, but ease off on characterizing him as looking for celeb treatment etc. Leave that personality stuff out of the conversation.  He put in a very respectable effort. Stellar for 2011.  Results are results and rules are rules and actions should be taken.

Well said.
When Guy is not working making a show he is working as a truck mechanic.
Down to earth and fast on powered and none powered two wheels


Kiwi Pete from the Singletrack

[dalerider]

nzpeterg the way you put it makes it sound as if guy makes tv shows as his main job and spare time truck mechanic, it's the other way round full time truck mechanic spare time motobike road racer [isle of man tt] then makes the occasional tv show, and apparently he cycles to work. but anyway some seem to be a bit outraged that he is claiming a TD finish when about 2% of his route was not 2016TD route. i know the rule says 2016 route or bust, but maybe a bit of sympathy or encouragement might not go amiss, because it was clearly a great effort and when you consider less  than a year ago he was in hospital with a broken back after a motorbike crash i think he deserves a bit of praise.
BTW it appears the administrators don't need to be told how to administrate their own event after all

[Kiwi Pete]

nzpeterg the way you put it makes it sound as if guy makes tv shows as his main job and spare time truck mechanic, it's the other way round full time truck mechanic spare time motobike road racer [isle of man tt] then makes the occasional tv show, and apparently he cycles to work. but anyway some seem to be a bit outraged that he is claiming a TD finish when about 2% of his route was not 2016TD route. i know the rule says 2016 route or bust, but maybe a bit of sympathy or encouragement might not go amiss, because it was clearly a great effort and when you consider less  than a year ago he was in hospital with a broken back after a motorbike crash i think he deserves a bit of praise.
BTW it appears the administrators don't need to be told how to administrate their own event after all

Hi sorry if it sounded that way no he fixes Trucks for a living.
And is a top I.O.M racer!
Just a cool dude.
I'm a ex motorcycle engineer/mechanic for over 30 years plus worked on Big Buses in the UK on one of my O.E.'s.
Now a simple bicycle mechanic
 
I'm not any good writing


Kiwi Pete from the Singletrack

[dalerider]

Hi sorry if it sounded that way no he fixes Trucks for a living.
And is a top I.O.M racer!
Just a cool dude.
I'm a ex motorcycle engineer/mechanic for over 30 years plus worked on Big Buses in the UK on one of my O.E.'s.
Now a simple bicycle mechanic
 
I'm not any good writing


Kiwi Pete from the Singletrack

just to be clear i wasn't having a pop at you, i was just putting my understanding of his employment for those who may not know about guy martin, he is well known, but only by certain kinds of people, whole loads of folk have no idea who he is if they are not into IOM or bikes, as you will well know. the other bit about some saying 'RELEGATE HIM NOW' was aimed at others, they know who they are. i personally think it's really tough on him to be relegated for what looks to me to be such  minor mistakes[my opinion]. no prizes won, nobody lost out, he didn't gain by it, the only thing won was the adventure. when you look closely at his track points where he went off route you can see he wasted tons of time on what looked to me as if he was really confused with the route, he was backtracking at times but then just seemed to go with his original mistake. i know rules is rules, i just think it's a little bit harsh given the effort put in

[Kiwi Pete]

just to be clear i wasn't having a pop at you, i was just putting my understanding of his employment for those who may not know about guy martin, he is well known, but only by certain kinds of people, whole loads of folk have no idea who he is if they are not into IOM or bikes, as you will well know. the other bit about some saying 'RELEGATE HIM NOW' was aimed at others, they know who they are. i personally think it's really tough on him to be relegated for what looks to me to be such  minor mistakes[my opinion]. no prizes won, nobody lost out, he didn't gain by it, the only thing won was the adventure. when you look closely at his track points where he went off route you can see he wasted tons of time on what looked to me as if he was really confused with the route, he was backtracking at times but then just seemed to go with his original mistake. i know rules is rules, i just think it's a little bit harsh given the effort put in

Well said
After all TD is an Adventure


Kiwi Pete from the Singletrack

[dalerider]

for what it's worth if GUY could sort his navigation out better and streamline his resupplies i think he could be a potential future winner of the TD, he certainly rides his bike fast enough,