Tour Divide 2017 - race discussion thread

[saskawhat]

Josh, it's been great getting your perspective on the race. Love the way you support the sport and your fellow althletes. Congratulations on another epic run.

This +1

[Briansong]

Congratulations To Mark Caminiti. What is this? 5? Wow. 

[bpeschka]

Congratulations To Mark Caminiti. What is this? 5? Wow. 

I think I met Mark at Brush Mountain.  I believe he was shooting for a Triple Crown, which I can't explain.  Also, maybe not his first.  He came in really late, ate, slept a little, and was gone early.  If I remember correctly, "wired" was the correct term for him.  ;} 
Congrats, Mark.

[Flinch]

+1 Mark !
Stayed in Butts Cabin w Mark. Astounding how little gear he carries.

[dream4est]

Hi everyone I rode all night from about 35 miles before the Beaverhead work center to the finish for a 22:10:30 or so. That is my first time doing a true no sleep overnight run. I have done many like it but I always slept and hour or two. So I nailed that MFer. The employees at Wal-Mart didnt like me bringing my bike at 330am in but that is how I roll.

Third TD finish in a grand depart. 14th triple crown challenge event finish. In 14 starts. Still the only failure I have had in a grand depart was the 2007 CTR. Not many folks have 3 TD finishes so that makes this one pretty special.

I raced solo the whole event. Went out at night many times and even battled with Brett Stepanik at night a few times that was sweet. 

At Jeff Sharps house. Chilling. He is the man BTW. What a great guy to hang with after riding my bike way too far lol.

[MrsPivvay]

Congrats Mark, impressive.

[Adam Alphabet]

Nice work Mark. Way to get it done again.

[dream4est]

Edit: buying a car in tucson. I ain't playing around anymore with businesses that refuse US currency like all the car rental folks. It's cheaper to buy a used car and sell it later. It was always my never used emergency backup plan, but maybe I should been sling this all along. Lol

Mark

[Pirahna]

For those not keen on Facebook, this was posted earlier by Bonnie:

"Hello my friends! I ask that what is shared here in this private group remain in this group. Here is an update to what's occurring behind the scenes. Matthew Lee has requested that ALL Tour Divide related groups on Facebook be closed. He has directly asked David Chirnside and myself to close our respective groups and he will be addressing all others. The reason he has given is because he wants to turn TD back into an "underground event". While I don't believe that is possible in part due to the world wide spread of the exceptional documentary on NetFlix, features in Outside magazine etc, I still unequivocally support the race and therefore the race director, especially in light of pressing interest by the local governments and forestry services, not to mention liability and environmental concerns.
Matthew recently joined this group along with David's in order to make sure both groups closed. This group has now become simply a group of friends who love bikepacking, which happens to include the GDBMR/Great Divide MTB Route amongst other things. You may have noticed a change in the group privacy as well as an admin approval requirement for any member adds. Matthew is now no longer a member in this group."

[flyboy]

For those not keen on Facebook, this was posted earlier by Bonnie:

"Hello my friends! I ask that what is shared here in this private group remain in this group. Here is an update to what's occurring behind the scenes. Matthew Lee has requested that ALL Tour Divide related groups on Facebook be closed. He has directly asked David Chirnside and myself to close our respective groups and he will be addressing all others. The reason he has given is because he wants to turn TD back into an "underground event". While I don't believe that is possible in part due to the world wide spread of the exceptional documentary on NetFlix, features in Outside magazine etc, I still unequivocally support the race and therefore the race director, especially in light of pressing interest by the local governments and forestry services, not to mention liability and environmental concerns.
Matthew recently joined this group along with David's in order to make sure both groups closed. This group has now become simply a group of friends who love bikepacking, which happens to include the GDBMR/Great Divide MTB Route amongst other things. You may have noticed a change in the group privacy as well as an admin approval requirement for any member adds. Matthew is now no longer a member in this group."

Just my opinion but for the best I think. It worried me a bit that information/experience was being diluted and lost, not to mention the publicity element. FB access feels like it is turning it into an all too easily accessable ride/boast fest. Exhibit "A" - the plethora of white dots this year.
 Bikepacking racing is an underground sport for various reasons. To my mind the two main reasons are because of public liability/land access issues and just plain 'ol self sufficiency. You have to find this forum to find out about the race (I see Ride The Divide as a tasty tidbit to pique the adventurous's interest but really, it is still an underground film with relatively low exposure (applogies Mr Dion))

Fire away......

[Erik_A]

Which groups are being closed?

https://www.facebook.com/tourdivide/
or
https://www.facebook.com/groups/tourdivide/

I think that "underground" may have been lost when Guy Martin raced last year:
http://singletrackworld.com/2016/07/tour-divide-guy-martin-finishes-greg-may-nearly-there/
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/june/guy-martin-in-tour-divide-race/

Were there too many athletes at this year's Grand Depart?  Any idea of how the numbers have grown over the years?

For those not keen on Facebook, this was posted earlier by Bonnie:

"Hello my friends! I ask that what is shared here in this private group remain in this group. Here is an update to what's occurring behind the scenes. Matthew Lee has requested that ALL Tour Divide related groups on Facebook be closed. He has directly asked David Chirnside and myself to close our respective groups and he will be addressing all others. The reason he has given is because he wants to turn TD back into an "underground event". While I don't believe that is possible in part due to the world wide spread of the exceptional documentary on NetFlix, features in Outside magazine etc, I still unequivocally support the race and therefore the race director, especially in light of pressing interest by the local governments and forestry services, not to mention liability and environmental concerns.
Matthew recently joined this group along with David's in order to make sure both groups closed. This group has now become simply a group of friends who love bikepacking, which happens to include the GDBMR/Great Divide MTB Route amongst other things. You may have noticed a change in the group privacy as well as an admin approval requirement for any member adds. Matthew is now no longer a member in this group."

[SlowDave]

"Underground" implies enough criminality to make it interesting.  "Underground" is not tracked by satellite.  Enjoy it for what it is, nothing more and nothing less.

[dream4est]

I just have to say that I have never been treated after a race like I was today in Arizona. Like a homeless bum everywhere I went until I bought a t shirt up north. I literally had to buy a used car or end up in a tucson park for the holidays. It wasn't just hotels and car rental places it was every fast food rest and gas station and dollar store too. I am totally done with this state and will not be coming back ever again for the Azt race. I am not sure if the new prez has anything to do with Arizonas new attitude, but I have never been stared at more, short handed change, stood far away in line from and literally tailgated a dozen times at least on the highways. Pathetic AZ just sad I saw a young homeless man who looked just like me thrown out of Taco Bell for loitering. He drank 4 cokes or something. I was shocked he wasn't even acting up. I actually was followed by cops twice in tucson waiting for a guy to buy a car from in parking lots near my bank?
It was surreal.

[Briansong]

Hi Mark.

I assure you this state isn't as you saw. I have ridden, bikepacked all over Arizona and have never been treated like you say. There is some California attitude showing up but Arizona, specially small town Arizona, has been welcoming and always interested in guys on bike rigs.

I humbly apologize for the way you were treated in my home state.

Steve

[Tyson]

One of the things I've respected and admired most of the past participants, especially the top finishers, of this "race" was how they always remained, more or less, quiet about the race and their experiences compared to the participants/finishers of the last few years... At least regarding public Facebook forums.  I realize there have been books and blogs, but, again, those were individual undertakings. Those previous individuals' overall silence speaks volumes about how they feel/felt and treat this amazing adventure that is the Tour Divide.  It seems the middle of the packers and beyond have made the most noise and pretty much have co-opted this extraordinary event which is a very disconcerting reality.  It reminds me a lot of Crazy Larry... Great guy full of good intentions, but with no "real" affiliation to the actual race.  Just my two cents...

[davew]

I just have to say that I have never been treated after a race like I was today in Arizona. Like a homeless bum everywhere I went until I bought a t shirt up north. I literally had to buy a used car or end up in a tucson park for the holidays. It wasn't just hotels and car rental places it was every fast food rest and gas station and dollar store too. I am totally done with this state and will not be coming back ever again for the Azt race. I am not sure if the new prez has anything to do with Arizonas new attitude, but I have never been stared at more, short handed change, stood far away in line from and literally tailgated a dozen times at least on the highways. Pathetic AZ just sad I saw a young homeless man who looked just like me thrown out of Taco Bell for loitering. He drank 4 cokes or something. I was shocked he wasn't even acting up. I actually was followed by cops twice in tucson waiting for a guy to buy a car from in parking lots near my bank?
It was surreal.

Hopefully not to hi jack the thread considering the forum imploding time bomb that was posted earlier, but...

Wow, that is some interesting information regarding your experience in AZ. I had the complete opposite interaction with the locals. After a weeks riding and 1000km I arrived in Tucson looking like a shower of shit and I had no trouble what-so-ever. I met fantastic people everywhere I went: REI, bars, restaurants, hotels, gas stations. I can’t wait to get back to Arizona and the AZTR. Sorry to hear your experience was not as enjoyable.

[Mathewsen]

"Underground" implies enough criminality to make it interesting.  "Underground" is not tracked by satellite.  Enjoy it for what it is, nothing more and nothing less.

Frank Zappa said it best: "The mainstream comes to you, but you have to go to the underground."  Let's think for a minute about how FB info comes to us(?)  It's a big computers algorithm push that knows all about us and our buying & click habits.  Notifications tuned to our tendencies are delivered to us by email & IM, sometimes several times a day using catchy phrases.  And then it makes billions selling advertising on our comments and likes.  Yep, the problem with FB is it has nothing to do with, "Enjoying it for what it is". It's ever striving to get us more likes and show us how to 'promote our posts'.  Sure FB has its place as a promotional tool, but I am sorry, I'd rather primary TD discussion threads not take place in such an enviro, promoted to tens of thousands. It's far from an alternative environment. Yes, bikepacking has hit the mainstream, but IMO all that means is that an even smaller percentage of those flocking to it are qualified, suited for, and have any biz doing it ultra style. For a rapidly growing majority, there should only be touring (which is great).  If bikepacking websites / FB groups, and manufacturers of bikepacking products want to promote touring, then great; that's where the real enjoyment of the pastime lies. They should probably not be so heavily promoting unsanctioned ultra racing...but, alas, unfortunately in marketing, 'racing', and 'X-games' sell products as well as any other narrative.

'Tracked by satellite', was introduced by TD in 2008 so riders could turn themselves inside out without worrying about checking in with SOs, or those monitoring course compliance.  It had almost nothing to do with checking with social media.  Blue dot fever was an unintended consequence.  The technology is, by itself, not incompatible with notions of 'underground'.  That tracking can also help keep riders safe only furthers the ultra goals of responsibility / sustainability / staying low key. Tracking dangerous high adventure of all kinds was always inevitable. Perhaps most important, it helps protect those who would go looking for us when we turn up missing while behaving dangerously.

[pickupel]

I completely agree with Matthew that there are serious challenges facing the Tour Divide. Indeed, these problems aren't confined to the Divide, but are increasingly felt across the sport as a whole. However, I don't think removing discussion from Facebook is the solution. If we break down the challenges facing bikepacking races we can see that they are not caused by Facebook and, further, that Facebook (and other discussion groups) may be part of the solution.

I see there being three key challenges:

1. An increase in inexperienced riders taking on bikepacking races (e.g. see the video from Tom at the Fernie 'Guides Hut' about the number of underprepared riders arriving in Fernie on this year's TD — https://www.facebook.com/bikepackcan/videos/1378443895526299/?fref=mentions). The more inexperienced and underprepared racers expose themselves to risk, the more likely it becomes that someone will be seriously injured or killed by placing themselves in a situation they cannot handle. The mountains can be a dangerous place for the ill-prepared. If someone were to be seriously injured or killed, that would almost certainly be a catalyst for government agencies in Canada and the US to expose the event to greater scrutiny. As others have noted, the Tour Divide would become unsustainable if permits were required to ride the route.

2. The increased interest in events like the Tour Divide has given rise to a larger number of starters. The more riders starting these events, the more ‘noise’ they make and the more likely they are to attract the interest of the authorities. After all, forestry services on both sides of the border are primarily responsible for maintaining the wilderness for the enjoyment of all — it is this desire for preservation that drives them to limit the use of such land for major events. If the Tour Divide continues to grow in scale, they may no longer be able to turn a blind eye and will be forced to intervene.

3. Facebook pages can detract from the self-supported nature of the event. Dot watchers can (and do) use Facebook to contact riders they know to be in trouble and offer assistance. For instance, several times this year dot watchers offered Divide riders advice on where they might find assistance in repairing their bikes. On the Trans Am Bike Race Facebook page, there was a heated discussion over dot watchers providing weather reports to racers. While it is true that, to a certain extent, these events must adapt to the prevalence of social media, we should not shy away from discussion where the line should be drawn in terms of outside assistance.

Having laid out the challenges (as I see them, there may well be more), it is worth distinguishing between causation and correlation. Although Facebook pages discussing the Tour Divide elevate the profile of the event and undoubtedly increase its accessibility, I do not think they are chiefly responsible for causing the first two problems laid out above. To my mind, the key factor in the increased popularity and accessibility of bikepacking has been mainstream cycling companies pushing the sport in their marketing.

When I first became involved in bikepacking (circa. 2010), it was very difficult to find information on the right bike or equipment to use — today, many major brands (chiefly Salsa, but to a lesser degree Specialized and others) stock ‘adventure’ bikes and a range of bikepacking bags. Their marketing is aspirational and involves stories of adventure, encouraging their customers to give bikepacking a go. Indeed, Salsa’s marketing for the Cutthroat includes the term ‘Tour Divide Inspired’ (http://salsacycles.com/bikes/cutthroat). The reach of such marketing is much, much broader than either a Facebook page with a few thousand members or Mike Dion’s films.

Given the above, it is clear that the sport is at a crossroads and is facing real problems, but it is also clear that shutting down Facebook pages is not the solution. In fact, an element of the solution to all three problems may be more discussion and dialogue on Facebook (and other) forums — if we aspire to explore the mountains but treat them with respect, provide encouragement to newcomers but temper it with caution, cheer on racers but are serious about refraining from assisting them, then we will start to make a difference. Facebook pages can set the tone and make it clear that events like the Tour Divide should be treated with respect and not taken on lightly. We can also help disseminate the race rules on assistance to those who may be unclear about them.

Pushing the sport, and more specifically the Tour Divide, back to underground status is, in my view, not possible. However regrettable that may be. It certainly can’t be achieved by getting rid of several Facebook pages. What we can do is try to preserve the key qualities of the sport — self-sufficiency and a respect for the areas we traverse. Online discussion, as suggested above, will help, but any real solution must involve dialogue with bike industry stakeholders — just making brands like Salsa aware of the current challenges facing the sport might be a productive first step.

I should add that I'm not a big fan of Facebook and preferred when race discussion was conducted mainly on this forum. I also agree with Matthew that Facebook as an entity is pretty unpalatable in that it is chiefly a marketing tool used to shape our perspectives in a very invidious way. But I don't think that's a good enough reason for abandoning the use of Facebook forums which may, if conducted properly, have a real benefit.

NB: I posted a slightly modified version of the above to the 'GDMBR' Facebook page.

[Two Tired]

Marketa Peggy Marvanova.  Women's first - Tour Divide 2017.

22 days, 18 hours, 4 minutes.

Second try gets first place.  Nice !

[Bagger]

Matt Lee and keeping the race "underground"...

1. This race, like many others, isn't official. The Divide path isn't owned. The race itself isn't owned. That is the entire concept, thus any level of implied control is quite funny.

2. Groups like the ones found on Facebook have a positive impact on bikepacking as a past-time that far outweighs the proposed negative impact on a specific, "non-official" race.

3. The only reason this is a "race" or that there are records, is that the racers accept a person being an official / unofficial race director. Matt Lee has no real control other than that which the racers give him.

4. The high placing racers (along with a lot others) give interviews, share gear lists and do public speaking all based on Tour Divide experiences. Are they going to be asked to quit? B/C those activities are much higher profile than some message board.


The idea, when popular enough, becomes the institution. It isn't controlled, it just happens. With anything bicycle-related, the barrier to entry is pretty low. Entry to a non-race, race is just showing up. The cost is days off and whatever physical toll those people choose to accept.

The official, non-official Tour Divide isn't the only grass-roots style endro that has seen a bump in popularity. Two in my area have doubled in size in 3 years. One has become and official race. The other decided to raise the barrier to official entry with a lottery + high-placing exemptions and allowing official sponsorship. This post is critical of Matt Lee. And most race directors of official / non-official races get slagged over similar things.  He want's a level of control and ownership over this thing (that existed well before him). Seen it before. Either he will accept the wind and make changes to his unofficial event, or that same wind will change the event without him.

People were riding the route prior to the unofficial organization (organizations really... there was another at one point). People will ride it without a race director. The route is simply too long to control at a grass-roots level. Finishing under 20 days is too big of an accomplishment not to gain some sort of interest from endro media and niche fans. All Matt can do is regulate the unofficial start and record books. Both of which do not matter at all to the majority of people that want to ride.

I guess at the end of the day it comes down to the value of the race director and the organization. Since this is all so non-official, I guess the value is extremely debatable. Especially if your unofficial event is causing so much damage that there is a need to squash a freakin' Facebook page.