Tour Divide 2017 - race discussion thread

[Erik_A]

Pretty much anyone can start a Tour Divide Or Great Divide Facebook page, so if the 2-3 established pages voluntarily dismantle; won't new ones pop up?   I understand the wish to get back to a more "underground" event like it was 7-8 years ago; but the cat is out of the bag now.   Wouldn't a better option be to start a brand new ultra distance cycling/ bikepacking route; and then don't advertise it publicly.

Ie.
http://www.bluetoad.com/publication/?i=299938&pre=1#%7B%22issue_id%22:299938,%22page%22:26%7D

[Briansong]

I can certainly understand the desire to go keep or "go back" to underground status. However, I think movies, books, iTunes
and all the other things that are more profit motivated have done FAR more to "mainstream" both bike packing AND the TD have than Facebook pages that are more result of the aforementioned than the cause. This Genie, isn't going back in the bottle.

[dream4est]

I have to add that during the race I also had some bad customer service at mcds,wal mart and the dollar stores. Starting in Colorado. Always young employees but it was everyone at silver city wal mart. I work in tourism - Moab bike shop- u have to be kidding in how people who work in these businesses in the southwest act like punks to grown adults who have jobs families lives etc. I would be fired for treating people the way I was treated the last 10 days. I demand a lot more respect than I was given.

[BobM]

I demand a lot more respect than I was given.

Perhaps this was part of the problem?

[dream4est]

Just like any tourist I expect to be treated correctly. I have kept my mouth shut on this subject for way too many years. Hire competent employees or I am going to complain. Gone are the times where I just leave shaking my head. Now I look everyone right in the eye just like they do to me. With the same attitude.

I spend thousands of dollars in these states and in these stores. For 10 years. I am just as important as the family in the Escalade Bob M. and that is what YOU dont seem to get.

[Erik_A]

There is always the Baja Divide in the winter if the Great Divide is too public. 

https://bajadivide.com/route-details/

[megand]

Alexandera Houchin set out from Banff on an ITT yesterday, it looks like she's making pretty good time - might be one to watch.

[Mathewsen]

Matt Lee and keeping the race "underground"...

1. This race, like many others, isn't official. The Divide path isn't owned. The race itself isn't owned. That is the entire concept, thus any level of implied control is quite funny.

2. Groups like the ones found on Facebook have a positive impact on bikepacking as a past-time that far outweighs the proposed negative impact on a specific, "non-official" race.

3. The only reason this is a "race" or that there are records, is that the racers accept a person being an official / unofficial race director. Matt Lee has no real control other than that which the racers give him.

4. The high placing racers (along with a lot others) give interviews, share gear lists and do public speaking all based on Tour Divide experiences. Are they going to be asked to quit? B/C those activities are much higher profile than some message board.


The idea, when popular enough, becomes the institution. It isn't controlled, it just happens. With anything bicycle-related, the barrier to entry is pretty low. Entry to a non-race, race is just showing up. The cost is days off and whatever physical toll those people choose to accept.

The official, non-official Tour Divide isn't the only grass-roots style endro that has seen a bump in popularity. Two in my area have doubled in size in 3 years. One has become and official race. The other decided to raise the barrier to official entry with a lottery + high-placing exemptions and allowing official sponsorship. This post is critical of Matt Lee. And most race directors of official / non-official races get slagged over similar things.  He want's a level of control and ownership over this thing (that existed well before him). Seen it before. Either he will accept the wind and make changes to his unofficial event, or that same wind will change the event without him.

People were riding the route prior to the unofficial organization (organizations really... there was another at one point). People will ride it without a race director. The route is simply too long to control at a grass-roots level. Finishing under 20 days is too big of an accomplishment not to gain some sort of interest from endro media and niche fans. All Matt can do is regulate the unofficial start and record books. Both of which do not matter at all to the majority of people that want to ride.

I guess at the end of the day it comes down to the value of the race director and the organization. Since this is all so non-official, I guess the value is extremely debatable. Especially if your unofficial event is causing so much damage that there is a need to squash a freakin' Facebook page.

Nice first post, Bagger. Which route do you suggest TD go? The way of official race (permits, entry fees, insurance and sponsors), or just try to hold on / weather the growth amidst deepening social reach? Sure the value of what the GDR / Tour Divide established / maintained for nearly 15 years now can be debated, but until one is willing to do the work to manage a grand depart end to end, and take on all the risk, how can one quantify?

What I'm trying to do by requesting we limit TD's FB presence to one, basic / official / somewhat boring TD FB page is not an attempt to own TD or Divide racing. Indeed, my intent is just the opposite: to *not* feel the need to protect it by owning it. Until now assertion of a bit of 'social control / influence' has been sufficient for keeping things in check. Deepening social media reach, however, and it's rules of chaos probably represents a threat to this tacit balance. I've done a decent job caring for TD amid field size growth and waves of social change. Part of my objection to too much FB activity (aka 'facebook fever'), particularly en vivo (mid-race), is the way it's pushed indiscriminately to the masses. I don't think it aids discretion, and it definitely promotes inorganic growth. I also hear annually how, increasingly, racers (mid-packers, I'd say) spend time on social media to inform their own experience on course, even as they race. They're pushing content out, but also taking it all in. Being fueled by this lust to check in, IMO, is just silly when the intent is to be having an intense personal odyssey. If it wouldn't make my life much harder in communicating with racers, I'd love to stage a special throwback year of TD in which smart phones and GPS navigators were prohibited. Make people go back to navigating by cues for a year. I think it could make for some really nice / challenging personal growth. It's not easy to navigate by cues, but boy does it teach you to know a route well.

All the documentaries and articles, books, blogs and whatever: Those are content created after the fact. I sincerely believe, though still self-promoted, this content doesn't have the live (almost viral) reach that FB does. It eventually fades into the archives (yes, so too will Ride the Divide eventually fade). But FB is an ongoing machine with evolving / exponential, sometimes even 'fake news'-type reach. Regarding TD growth: I don't want to 'need' to impose limitations on TD group size, or get in trouble with land managers because their bosses above them (at a national level) can no longer look the other way. One thing is for sure, when authorities go looking to put their finger on the pulse of anything--to monitor in-group behaviors--FB is one of the first places they look.

[MikeI]

Alexandera Houchin set out from Banff on an ITT yesterday, it looks like she's making pretty good time - might be one to watch.

I liked her video she made of her ride in '15   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpFSFo_vVPQ

[dp]

So many thoughts.

Been following GDR/TD since John Billman's piece in Outside in 2008. FB groups, like dot stalking, are an unintended consequence. I get that. FB groups (and to some degree forums like this one) are not unlike the sports bar where you watch pro-ball with your buddies. It's not unnatural to want to play a game of flag football after watching the Superbowl. And maybe that's the issue: blokes at the pub would never make the cut in the NFL, so why do people in groups & forums think they have what it takes to challenge the GDMBR ultra-style?

There's no problem with regular folks touring the route: it's free and it's there and adventure is worthwhile for its own sake, so why not? But ultra-style ITT (non)racing? From what I've read thus far, that seems to be the crux. (IMO, FB attracts all kinds, including the wannabes, but I think there's more "damage" done by individuals pushing TD related content out than by FB Groups, especially if those groups are secret, in which case their content is not searchable and is not pushed out to the masses.)

Matt's probably right - most of us don't have what it takes to ultra-style it in the purest sense, for all kinds of reasons. Even after years of anticipation and preparation and training, I had no idea how hard it would be out there.

What to do? Organizers have several options. Here are just a few ideas (feel free to mashup your own):

Possibility 1) Organizers withdraw support, cut ties completely, both here on BP and on TL; take down the TD web page, the FB page, and whatever "official" online presence remains. Dot stalking vanishes (or moves to spotwalla). But remember people, without Matt & Scott, there is no confirmed route recon before the GD. That's a luxury we currently enjoy that we could probably learn to live without, but it would change the event in unpredictable ways. This year, how far would riders have gone before discovering that bridges were out downstream in the Flathead? What about fire re-routes? It's the organizers' relationships with Parks/USFS/BLM/etc. that allow the rest of us to have a "confirmed" route each year. But let's be honest - even if the Organizers disband entirely, riders will still show up in Banff on the 2nd Friday in June.

Possible future 2) Make it so that the GD is staggered - say, vets w/ finish start Friday, vets w/o finish start Saturday, Rookies start Sunday. Anybody with a projected finish time in excess of ## days (25? 28? 30?), show up some other time and challenge the course as an ITT - but not during GD. Gotta earn that. Different waves get different color dots on TL, so stalkers can tell the difference. ITTs could still challenge the course whenever they wanted, so that part really wouldn't change. GD or ITT, it remains an unregulated gentlemen's bet, entered into on one's honor.

Possible future 3) Make the GD a semi-official thing, where there's a registration fee (and a big fat waiver indemnifying the organizers of liability when you ride your bike off Richmond Peak), and this fee gets you a bike/kit suitability check (not unlike what you'd have to submit to at Arrowhead or ITI to prove that at least your gear is up to snuff), Spot registration for TL, and a TD number plate that you actually have to show up in Banff to pick up. Make the GD for registered racers only; seed them in waves as outlined previously; limit the total number of GD racers so that USFS "group event" rules are upheld. Once the gun goes off (figuratively speaking anyway - the GD is in Canada after all), Organizers resume their regularly scheduled TD monitoring activities.

Future 4) Do nothing. Organizers maintain status quo, and settle in for a life playing FB whak-a-mole.

I'm sure there are other possibilities. I'm not suggesting this is an easy nut to crack, but telling people they can't go to the pub to watch the game and chew the fat with their buddies... I just don't think that's the answer. The social element of this "thing" is not going to go away. TD is such a bizarre obsession - how many people in your immediate sphere "get" what you're into or why you love it? Sometimes it's just good to know you're not alone.

Unless you're out on course. In that case, it's just you & the bears.

-dp

[GrizzlyAdam]

Future 4) Do nothing. Organizers maintain status quo, and settle in for a life playing FB whak-a-mole

This would be my vote. Except I don't think FB needs monitoring. The existing groups are all closed, so they aren't being pushed out to the public.It'd be an impossible task to try to limit what individuals share on their own pages - and trying do so would only incur resentment.

Matt, thanks for contributing to the conversation. This type of discussion seems to come up every couple of years. I appreciate everything that you, and others have done to make the TD into what it is - and has been. I never raced in the early days, but I watched as closely as I could back then. There's a lot to love about the simplicity of those early years, but I also think there's a lot to love about the way that the TD/GDR has given rise to one of the best communities of people that I know. Every bikepack race that I have done, I have met people that have become life-long friends. Including the '17 TD despite my early scratch.

FWIW, sharing photos during a multi-day race has become something I really enjoy. I prefer Instagram. (Facebook is a hot mess, no doubt, the only saving grace are the closed groups!)

Perhaps a moderator could move these posts to a separate thread? The race discussion has been hijacked a bit.

[mtbcast]

#TourDivide17 Rick Ashton called in from Cuba!
http://mtbcast.com/site2/category/td17/

[jjmundt]

Perhaps a moderator could move these posts to a separate thread? The race discussion has been hijacked a bit.

+1

Love the discussion, but maybe a separate thread would be better.  I've started several replies myself, but am too "wet behind the ears" to hit the post button, so I'll just read and absorb.

[pickupel]

Matthew,

First of all, I think you’ve done an outstanding job in nurturing the Tour Divide, which, I’m sure, has involved countless hours volunteering. That’s something for which I am very grateful.

As I said earlier, I also completely agree with your motivations. The abundance of social media posts this year (both on the Tour Divide and Trans Am pages) involving blatant assistance of riders was quite shocking. Further, I’m very concerned (as a lawyer who has experience in event organisation) that the increased profile of the Divide will eventually prompt a bureaucratic crackdown which will change the nature of the race permanently. The need for permits and liability insurance would making it prohibitively expensive for most, or require generous event sponsorship.

However, I disagree that removing Facebook pages is the way to combat these challenges. You’re concerned that Facebook has a “live (almost viral) reach” and that it “is an ongoing machine with evolving / exponential, sometimes even ‘fake news’ type reach.” However, I genuinely don’t believe that the Facebook pages in question have anything like the impact of the current marketing push major bike manufacturers are engaged in — e.g. Salsa promoting the Cutthroat as ‘Divide inspired’. Similarly, Mike Dion regularly promotes ‘Ride the Divide’ on Facebook, paying for his posts to be promoted. I’m not criticising Mike Dion (he’s not making movies for free), rather I’m merely pointing out that perhaps Facebook discussion groups are not the root cause of the real problems you have identified.

Indeed, I believe the Facebook community (as the spiritual successor to this forum) has the opportunity to help moderate behaviour — both in terms of educating newcomers to the rules of bikepacking races (thereby limiting online assistance) and in helping to encourage ill-prepared riders to seek a different challenge before attempting the Divide. Any concerns about making the event appear ‘official’ can be met by broadening the scope of the pages to include general bikepacking, rather than allowing them to be event specific.

[bmattingly44@yahoo.com]

Hey Mark,

I'm sending you lots of love from Northern Arizona.  Good job on the race.  Sorry about your experience of rude people in AZ.  Maybe the heat and City stuff lead to people being lame.  Maybe they are stressed or unhappy.  I totally agree with you, you are as important as the person in the rich car.  Cheers.

With the other lengthy discussions on TD lets just give Matt, Scott, and I think Stephan a ton of gratitude for their creations and energy that help many experience hours of excitement, suffering, joy, jubilation and many other adjectives, annually.  Thank you guys a bunch!!!

[kiwidave]

I also hear annually how, increasingly, racers (mid-packers, I'd say) spend time on social media to inform their own experience on course, even as they race.  .... Part of my objection to too much FB activity (aka 'facebook fever'), particularly en vivo (mid-race), is the way it's pushed indiscriminately to the masses. I don't think it aids discretion, and it definitely promotes inorganic growth. I also hear annually how, increasingly, racers (mid-packers, I'd say) spend time on social media to inform their own experience on course, even as they race. They're pushing content out, but also taking it all in. Being fueled by this lust to check in, IMO, is just silly when the intent is to be having an intense personal odyssey.

Matt - you say above that mid-packers are spending time on social media mid race "being fueled by this lust to check in, IMO, is just silly when the intent is to be having an intense personal odyssey."

It is always good to fact check to enable evidence based decision making:

1. JayP posted on his FB page "en vivo" 17 times in 16 days (great posts JayP - keep on racing and good luck with the hand issue)

2. Billy Rice posted on his FB page "en vivo" 6 times over 2 days including video! (which was cool - get well soon Billy)

3. The total posts "en vivo" of EVERYONE on the larger FB group from the SOBO GD was only 18 times.

4. There were 120+ call-ins to MTB Cast. (Great to hear the calls of people - thanks Joe Polk)

So no, it is not the "mid-packers" (the hardest working riders in ultra-racing IMHO) who are posting mostly on FB - it is the front end who have the time and energy to spare after/during a long tough day - kudos to them.

However, IMO your criticism of people who post mid race is not black & white but more nauanced - people can have their own personal intense odyssey and still post a picture or a line of text - they are not mutually exclusive events for many people. The fact that it is mutually exclusive for you is OK too - we're all different and that's what makes ultraracing cool - a group of such different people passionate about pushing ourselves beyond our percieved limits whilst bikepacking the TD.

PS: Awaiting email reply re: ongoing discussions with some considerations to be had from the above thoughtful posts here too.

Back to the TD racing ... Geof and Denise have finished for first Tandem for '17!! 25:07:37.

[mtbcast]

Thanks for doing the math, Dave! I hadn't done that yet. As a testament to how social media changes things, however, I think I've seen 400 calls before so times change. MTBCast is evolving and will probably take more of a backseat with social media becoming more the place to get far more timely information. I can only put calls up once I process them (edit, stitch a couple together if necessary, post) and often that is around my day job. I don't put out as many episodes as I used to so maybe that contributes to the slowdown but again, more timely info can be gleaned on FB is part of that. The only thing I see getting lost in this is that racers now target their status to friends and family. So there's less chance of people really getting excited about them and following them. I remember people really getting into other racers just from hearing their status and tracking them. So some of that will be lost as racers target their message on social media. In the end, it is what it is. Technology changes, times change. The only way I see making the race more organic is to put limitations on it. Tighter rules, etc as have been talked about. It may be too late for that, I don't know. FWIW, I post the call links on FB because that's where people are following. I just want to make the calls available to whoever wants to hear them.

[dp]

Thanks for doing the math, Dave! I hadn't done that yet. As a testament to how social media changes things, however, I think I've seen 400 calls before so times change. MTBCast is evolving and will probably take more of a backseat with social media becoming more the place to get far more timely information. I can only put calls up once I process them (edit, stitch a couple together if necessary, post) and often that is around my day job. I don't put out as many episodes as I used to so maybe that contributes to the slowdown but again, more timely info can be gleaned on FB is part of that. The only thing I see getting lost in this is that racers now target their status to friends and family. So there's less chance of people really getting excited about them and following them. I remember people really getting into other racers just from hearing their status and tracking them. So some of that will be lost as racers target their message on social media. In the end, it is what it is. Technology changes, times change. The only way I see making the race more organic is to put limitations on it. Tighter rules, etc as have been talked about. It may be too late for that, I don't know. FWIW, I post the call links on FB because that's where people are following. I just want to make the calls available to whoever wants to hear them.

Your work is definitely appreciated Joe!

-dp

[mtbcast]

Your work is definitely appreciated Joe!

-dp

Thanks!

[BobM]

Thanks for doing the math, Dave! I hadn't done that yet. As a testament to how social media changes things, however, I think I've seen 400 calls before so times change. MTBCast is evolving and will probably take more of a backseat with social media becoming more the place to get far more timely information. I can only put calls up once I process them (edit, stitch a couple together if necessary, post) and often that is around my day job. I don't put out as many episodes as I used to so maybe that contributes to the slowdown but again, more timely info can be gleaned on FB is part of that. The only thing I see getting lost in this is that racers now target their status to friends and family. So there's less chance of people really getting excited about them and following them. I remember people really getting into other racers just from hearing their status and tracking them. So some of that will be lost as racers target their message on social media. In the end, it is what it is. Technology changes, times change. The only way I see making the race more organic is to put limitations on it. Tighter rules, etc as have been talked about. It may be too late for that, I don't know. FWIW, I post the call links on FB because that's where people are following. I just want to make the calls available to whoever wants to hear them.

Keep up the great work, Joe!  Nothing compares with hearing the racers' voices after a long day in the saddle.  Most don't even remember where they're calling from.  Lots of information is contained in the sound of their voice, more so than the words at times.