Tour Divide Basics

[kaparzo]

Planning on hitting the 2010 race, but have a few basic questions.  I have a decent amount of experience (CT, AT thru, lots of endurance racing), but just want to get some basics out of the way. 

I've never used a gps for anything other than basic pinpointing and elevation.  Do most spend the time in town to charge their gps...or periodically go without and push through.  In other words, is it a luxury or something people generally avoid going without?

I understand money spent is going to vary, but what's a good range? 

As far as tires, thinking high volume, low tread profile is good...something like the vulpine or karma?  Do most use tubeless...?

How much volume for frame bags...Currently have the epicdesigns seatbag and a talon 22.  I'd like to keep as much weight off my back as possible, and keep both bottle cages available? 

Any other basic advice or things you would have done terribly different or the same on your first go round would be awesome!  Thanks for any help.

[naked indian]

Cant really answer your other questions.

BUT, i know the GPS unit I am using the Etrex vista, takes AA's.  No need to charge. Just swap when they are dead.  Great little unit, bought it after a post I put on here asking what they recommend was the best unit for bikepacking.

[Marshal]

GPS
I like my Garmin Vista HCx, with two AA lithium batteries it goes about 30 hours.  You can extend the time by not using the backlight and also turning it on/off/on as needed.  I have to put on my glasses to ‘read’ the damm thing but with a ‘track’ all I need to do is keep the little black triangle centered on top the red line.

I also happen to use a light that uses AA’s & after the light has ‘used up’ it’s batteries I then get about 1-3 more hours of use out of them in my Garmin.  (I try to get all my electronics to use AA’s, even my phone can charge off AA’s)

Anyway at the end of the day GPS battery life is a non-issue for the TD route in my mind.  To easy to get re-supply vs messing with re-charging.  My biggest concern is reverting to old school map & cycle computer method if I were to have a GPS failure—yuk, & yes I am so spoiled.

Tubes
I will be using tubeless, with back up tubes, but it’s been going on 3+ yrs with 100’s of ‘seals’ but just 1 actual flat, seems silly to even think of using tubes as primary method now days.

Pack
I also want to keep the load on my back to a minimum.  I plan on a light waterproof backpack ‘partially filled’ with light stuff that I want to easy access to: rain pant/jacket, warm gloves, TP, ID/Money, First Aid Stuff, etc.  But the pack will also have a collapsed 100 oz bladder for when needed.

Water
Currently I plan on a big, big frame bag and only 1 water bottle mount, the one under the down tube.  I know that some have stuffed a bladder into their frame bag & I plan to trial out this method as soon as I get my new frame bag.  (I have all kinds of ideas about the ‘perfect’ frame bag)

One idea is to have two minimal ‘elastic net’ stretch pockets on the frame bag, one on each side near the front, for bottles of 12 oz drinks.  Fruit Juice’s, Red Bull’s, Chocolate milk’s, Pepsi’s etc etc.  Just buy em, stuff em in the pockets, drink em down and & dispose the empties next stop.

TD ideas just banging around in my mind all day & night ..........

[Pivvay]

I've never used a gps for anything other than basic pinpointing and elevation.  Do most spend the time in town to charge their gps...or periodically go without and push through.  In other words, is it a luxury or something people generally avoid going without?

I understand money spent is going to vary, but what's a good range? 

As far as tires, thinking high volume, low tread profile is good...something like the vulpine or karma?  Do most use tubeless...?

How much volume for frame bags...Currently have the epicdesigns seatbag and a talon 22.  I'd like to keep as much weight off my back as possible, and keep both bottle cages available? 

Any other basic advice or things you would have done terribly different or the same on your first go round would be awesome!  Thanks for any help.

GPS:
You NEED a good cycling computer that's accurate and reliable to follow the cue sheets, maybe 2 of them. It is very very easy to follow them. Don't forget the addenda. Frankly some of the time you'll be bored and happy to have a new cue to read, haha. The GPS is NOT necessary. I used mine as a backup cyclocomputer and idiot check. The publicly available tracks are not 100% accurate to the current course though they do generally help you through rare tricky areas and with turn confidence. Detours and addenda sections are not marked. You must know how to navigate without the GPS. A GPS that takes AA batteries is key like everyone else says. I usually got ~2 days per set of AA lithiums with mine running while riding.

Money:
There is a whole different thread on that on this forum so I"m not going to rehash it. Suffice it to say, $50/day is going to be a ballpark. The real key is that it's expensive to refill and gas stations and out of the way restaurants and those who can do so as well as take care of themselves and their bike without fretting about money will do better than those who watch every penny. Save a lot, use a credit card for the trip and forget money even exists if you want to finish more than anything else. Some ways to save are mentioned in the other thread.

Tubeless:
All the fastest guys this year were on WTB Nanoraptors with sealant (most tubeless, tandem Slime tubes) as was a lot of the the rest of the field. IMO running without sealant is silly. A durable tire with sealant will take most people from end to end with zero or minimal flats and some not even a tire change (usually the rear if you change it out). I think Matt and Jill went 2700+ miles on the same tires, I changed just the rear in Salida and Kurt might have changed both in Salida. Really why would you run anything but a Nano for this route? Fast, cheap, durable and proven.

Packing:
As much volume for frame bags as you can get. Don't worry a lot about the bottle cages. I keep one open at the back of my frame bag and that's worked fine. Even that one is so I can keep my water and sports drink or coffee stuff separate and only have to wash one small bottle if it gets gross. The frame bag space is worth the weight in gold. I started and rode maybe 40% of the route packless. The rest of the time I had sandwiches/pizza/cake/burgers etc stuffed in my 2 ounce cuben zpacks pack. Most people don't seem light enough to go packless so get yourself a small comfortable backpack and try to put most of the stuff on the bike somewhere. I used a 4L MSR bladder in my frame bag like Marshall mentions and it was great for me. My frame bag wasn't really designed with that in mind and it still worked okay. My next one will have that as a feature. Considering what you already have, I would get an epic frame bag with one or zero bottle cutouts and the front bedroll harness. If you can, I'd also size down that pack to something like the Talon 11. If you have space you'll fill it. If you don't have space and you really need it, you'll find a way to make room.

[Marshal]

GPS:
You NEED a good cycling computer that's accurate and reliable to follow the cue sheets, maybe 2 of them. It is very very easy to follow them. Don't forget the addenda. Frankly some of the time you'll be bored and happy to have a new cue to read, haha. The GPS is NOT necessary. I used mine as a backup cyclocomputer and idiot check. The publicly available tracks are not 100% accurate to the current course though they do generally help you through rare tricky areas and with turn confidence. Detours and addenda sections are not marked. You must know how to navigate without the GPS. A GPS that takes AA batteries is key like everyone else says. I usually got ~2 days per set of AA lithiums with mine running while riding.

Humm….I am planning on using my GPS 1st , and map(s)/computer as back up. 

I plan to make a ‘corrected’ track with my TopoFusion software, using the available track(s) as a starting point and edit/check with the official way points, detours, addenda sheets and goggle earth etc. etc. 

Thoughts?

[Pivvay]

Sure it will work if you can be 100% sure your track is accurate. From the computer that's going to be difficult I think. Some of the darn town/bike path sections are tricky. Now if you worked with someone who had a complete track I think one could be put together but I'm not sure how I feel about such a thing in terms of giving up my track for such purposes. I don't really doubt that you could do it that way Marshall but to be honest, I doubt if all others could be so accurate and some would  perhaps develop an even more lax attitude towards course compliance. "I just followed the GPS"

At the very least I'd condense the cue sheets to essential turns and keep track with both GPS and computer. There is a real danger of one device failing out there due to weather, accident, loss or other and the way the course is designed you're totally dependent on the cues without a GPS more detailed than is available.

The elevation profiles become pretty key out there from a decision making perspective too. Is the town on this side or THAT side of the 10-11k foot section?

[bmike-vt]

Correct me if I'm wrong - but for TD isn't the 'official' course the ACA maps?

I too am contemplating how to deal with GPS / Maps (but I'm 3 years out from TD or GD) - something that I'd be weary of is stitching together other folks tracks... and plotting the course via TF from the maps seems sketchy at best... as course compliance is determined by the official maps, AFAIK.

I think it opens a whole new philosophical debate about tech on the trail to discuss sharing of tracks. For instance - is it kosher to ride sections, save a correct track, and use that on the ride? Or email everyone who is on the finisher's list and ask for GPX files? Then stitch the relevant sections together?

Does ACA provide GPX data? Is that considered 'official'? (does it get updated like the addenda?)

All questions from a newb, so no flames intended...


*Edit - I see there is an overview GPS file on ACA's site. I'll have to download it - but I wonder about accuracy with the addenda...

[Pivvay]

I think anything is fair game at this point. If you're willing to risk taking the wrong route to leave the maps behind then accept the DQ if you screw up. If you're willing to email people and ask for a track A) they have to be willing to give it up which for many is unlikely due to the work required to get it and B) you are assuming or verifying they didn't screw up which is going to be really hard for a first timer

Unless a public GPS is accepted as "the route" the ACA maps are still the official course as you stated.

Now preriding a section and using the GPS track is totally fair game. Would I use my GPS tracks I've collect in the past two years if I did it again? Absolutely! It took a lot of work to gain them.

I think we're all envious of Matt's course knowledge but for almost everyone, the maps or some version of them as cues are still critical.

The ACA doesn't provide GPX data as far as I know. Everyone using a track is likely using Scott Morris's data which is darn accurate but not 100% updated to last year's maps and addenda. It's great as an "idiot check" IMO and confidence booster but I still relied on the cues heavily.

[bmike-vt]

Chris - not saying that I'd search out the GPX files... I respect the hard work that goes into scouting and getting them. With shorter races I see the GPX being the primary 'route'... assuming everyone has a GPS. There are several brevet organizers that post and share GPX files for their events - with the caveat that the cue sheet is still the official route, and that if you miss a control due to an error in the GPS you can be DQd - strictly a 'use at your own risk' type of thing.

ACA has course setcions in GPS format updated as of 5/09. The PDF states that they coordinate with the paper maps.

I haven't loaded these in TF or another program - but I have loaded their Green Mountain and Adirondack Park loops as I've used parts and pieces for local rides. As I don't have any of the paper maps I cannot comment on accuracy.

[naked indian]

When I go, fingers crossed in 2011, I plan to use both GPS and the maps and a normal ole school cat eye.

should be FUN!

[Pivvay]

No worries, I wasn't saying you particularly, just generalizing. I haven't looked at the ACA gpx files but I'm wondering if they're using ScottM's data as a base? I know he helped make the elevation profiles accurate IIRC.

You're right that some of the short races have had GPX files for the route. The AZT300 is certainly a follow the GPX type route while the CTR has had one for "use at your own risk" use and the Grand Loop files are a closely guarded secret.

I'm not opposed to people using the GPS, in fact I'm all for it. I just feel after having been out there that the maps contain too much valuable info especially for a first timer that navigating by the cues/maps still needs to be a significant component of the ride.

EDIT: The amount of time you'd have to spend to get the cues reformatted, elevation profiles and important hotel/food/resupply points in another format is pretty staggering. I think it'd be cheaper from a time/money perspective to throw the maps away as you go and just buy them again afterwards if you did it again! The full set only weighs 11oz and you're gambling big time to not have a computer...speaking from someone who lost his GPS sans computer in 2008.

[bmike-vt]

Yeah - I've tried to get some of my longer brevets into a format that my GPS would like takes a ton of work - and this is for paved routes. I'm actually a fan of the cue and map - esp having looked at some of ACA's road roues I imagine the extra info is well worth their weight.

I haven't purchased the GD maps yet as I'm still too far out.. Do the base maps change much? Would it matter if I put them on my Xmas list - or will they likely be so out of date come 2012 that I'll end up buying them again?

[Pivvay]

I would wait to buy the GDMBR maps until you are closer to taking the trip. They do change and no sense messing with more Addenda than necessary. If you want to peruse them I'll send you my set since I'm not racing this summer. Just send em back when you're done.

[daveB]

Mike-
You're welcome to look at my set of GDMBR maps if you get through Montpeculiar, my understanding is that there will likely be a revision before 2012.  I've compared them to the ACA's .gpx, and what's important is that the .gpx is a route built of all the cue points (plus waypoints for services etc).  Where the roads are super straight, the magic line is highly accurate.  Where the route wanders or switchbacks between cues, you'll be a good distance from the "line".  The .gpx is NOT a track.

TD ideas just banging around in my mind all day & night ..........

You're not alone there....

[Marshal]

Good ol fashioned GPS --faster, easier, more accurate than maps and computers (in the day light and especially at night) …ahhhhh---just teasing ……………

Umm…just to be clear…..I plan on using the GPS as my 1st, but not only, nav aid.  I have the maps, first TD specific item I ordered, and will be using them a lot, just too much info in the maps to even think of going without imo.  (unless you are Matt)  But for me the maps will be mostly for info on elevation, re-supply etc etc, ie rest stop & bed time reading but also a ‘back up’ for GPS failure.

For basic nav decisions, in my mind, it’s this simple –
A) Glance at GPS track to change direction, ie: turn or not (Forget setting and resetting the trip)
B) Glance occasionally at GPS to maintain that warm fuzzy feeling between turns and mentally mark upcoming turn(s)
c) Stop and read/use map to resolve any questions about ANY turns, but especially in congested areas. 
D) Feel you might have made an nav error? –simple—use any piece of info, from anywhere/anything, to re-trace your route till you are sure you got it right. (Or, if you are unwilling to correct your error--self regulate yourself)

Ummm…do we need this particular thread to devolve into a debate about ‘what the official route is’?  Earlier I meant to ask about ‘thoughts’ on GPS vs Maps and stuff, or other basic TD gear etc, not on what constitutes “THE  ROUTE” .

[bmike-vt]

Nope. Pretty clear - route is appropriate ACA map.... That is all.

(That rule thread has been awfully quiet!)

[Pivvay]

Haha no debate on what's the route, I just don't want everyone to think the GPS is "the answer" to following the course, just part of it.

Sounds like you'll be just fine Marshall. If you have any questions in developing your tracks let me know. I am willing to clarify from my "actually ridden" route if there are issues.

[Jilleo]

Scott's GPS track was amazingly accurate - it only missed the official route changes from the last few years (i.e. Ovando), wasn't very helpful in some of the tight town stretches (i.e. Silverton bike path) and of course doesn't include Canada. But Chris is right, there's not a whole lot else to do out there so you find yourself scrutinizing every aspect of those maps. Combine that with constant observation of the GPS track (including zooming in and out and in and out to make yourself look closer or farther to your destination, depending on your mood) and it is actually very hard to wander very far off the route without realizing you're doing it.

[Marshal]

So…how bout that there ‘boredom’ thingy?  

I currently plan on having some (lots) tunes in my fancy swanky camera/phone.   But personally I don’t use ‘ride’ music much.  I have played around with music on long rides, but generally it’s to much hassle.  However on the TD I can see where it might be really really nice to zone out for a few hr’s per day to an eclectic playlist.  I have also thought about a little AM radio, talk radio and such?? 

Any other thoughts/ideas on battling the boredom monster 10 days in?

[Pivvay]

Aside from talking to people which was always a treat, music was definitely my companion. I rarely if ever have ridden with music on single day endurance events and I don't think I dug my MP3 player out once until leaving Basin for Butte but it was key from then on. Sometimes the player set to random was just enough of what I needed to swap a mood, keep me rolling, ignore the weather or just otherwise deal with the inevitable hardships. And when I was feeling strong and motoring sometimes it kept me in the groove. Even when Kurt and I were together I used it some as did he. Riding 1XX miles a day every day for 3+ weeks is just flat out hard and the music does help me and many others cope. I also had Marni save some pictures on my camera and record a few short videos. They were precious carrots saved for certain goals or tough times but once I "earned" them I'd watch them over and over.

Don't get me wrong the scenery is often beautiful but there are lots of lonely hours out there and reading the maps was definitely good at times. JP took XM radio which sounds nice though I'm not much for recharging batteries yet. We'll see how I like the dyno hub I guess. I used a little MP3 player that takes 1 AAA, has 4 gigs and does radio though I never used that feature.