Tour Divide race discussion

[mtbcast]

MTBCast gem from Big Dave Wilson: "This event/race is not for the faint of taint."  Classic.

Yeah, that will make the Funnies!

[Johnny_mtb]

Question: if a rider has trouble on the route, and goes off route, but goes back to the point of departure from the route, but did go forward... Are they disqualified? My understanding was always, if you leave the route, but go back to the point it was left, the rider would not be breaking race rules. Is this incorrect? I, myself, have never heard "no forward travel allowed", before. However on hearing that call in from Max Morris, I'm a bit concerned for the two guys I'm following. As they did travel forward, however they also traveled back to the point the trail was left and lost nearly two days doing so. I know they are attempting to stick to every rule this race has applied to it. So if there is a no forward travel rule in place, it's the first time I've heard of it. If max is referencing something else entirely, that's cool, he's talking about something else. But can someone give me a little clarification, please? Cause the pit of my stomach has totally dropped on hearing that call. I've even been sticking to the "rules" of not telling the guys what's ahead of them and letting them fend for themselves. Which has been really hard to stick to, as I'm worried for my guys out there peddling their little limbs off. If someone in the know could be kind enough to let me know... Thank you in advance.

from: http://tourdivide.org/the_rules

a rider may be assisted[3] by motor vehicle in moving backwards or directly off the route, but never forward on route.

[Kattamah]

That means, forward, as in skipping part of the route, yes?

[robinb]

That means, forward, as in skipping part of the route, yes?

no, it means if you are on the course proper, you can't travel forward in a vehicle... even if you have ridden that part of the route.

[Kattamah]

Ah, ok.. Good! They went off route, then back to where they left it, so no harm done. Wording is a bit confusing there.

[Johnny_mtb]

Clears it up in the comments section of the FAQ's here: http://tourdivide.org/td_rule_4_faqs
As long as they are not on route and return to the same point they left or a point prior without forward help (my understanding).

[Kattamah]

Oh, that's much clearer, and funny in that's nearly the same scenario, only differing in it was a rear hub seized up... Thank you for the clarification... I'll go back to lurking again.

Cheers!

[cousinmosquito]

It's so good to see Geof Blanc hammering away out there. I think hes lied about his age though. I'm sure hes older than that ; )

[Christopher R. Bennett]

Clears it up in the comments section of the FAQ's here: http://tourdivide.org/td_rule_4_faqs
As long as they are not on route and return to the same point they left or a point prior without forward help (my understanding).

Yes - as long as you don't go ahead in any way on the actual route. The problem I had with my asthma attack was that the only way to hospital was along the highway which was the TDR route so by flagging a vehicle I had broken the rule.

[cousinmosquito]

Yes - as long as you don't go ahead in any way on the actual route. The problem I had with my asthma attack was that the only way to hospital was along the highway which was the TDR route so by flagging a vehicle I had broken the rule.

That does seem like a harsh rule. I wonder what that's about? You'd think if you returned to the same spot you would be good to go ?

[mountainjah]

Question: if a rider has trouble on the route, and goes off route, but goes back to the point of departure from the route, but did go forward... Are they disqualified? My understanding was always, if you leave the route, but go back to the point it was left, the rider would not be breaking race rules. Is this incorrect? I, myself, have never heard "no forward travel allowed", before. However on hearing that call in from Max Morris, I'm a bit concerned for the two guys I'm following. As they did travel forward, however they also traveled back to the point the trail was left and lost nearly two days doing so. I know they are attempting to stick to every rule this race has applied to it. So if there is a no forward travel rule in place, it's the first time I've heard of it. If max is referencing something else entirely, that's cool, he's talking about something else. But can someone give me a little clarification, please? Cause the pit of my stomach has totally dropped on hearing that call. I've even been sticking to the "rules" of not telling the guys what's ahead of them and letting them fend for themselves. Which has been really hard to stick to, as I'm worried for my guys out there peddling their little limbs off. If someone in the know could be kind enough to let me know... Thank you in advance.

Did they both have rear hubs that seized? Because I'd be more concerned about traveling solo...

[BobM]

That does seem like a harsh rule. I wonder what that's about? You'd think if you returned to the same spot you would be good to go ?

The idea is that you are getting route info by traveling forward on the route.  Still seems harsh, but that's the justification.

[Done]

I don't think that anyone has ever argued helping another rider is grounds for disqualification
 In fact, I think that it generally considered appropriate, especially when the receiver is in danger. In my perfect little world, I think that it should actually be required to help any other rider who is experiencing an emergency situation. But anyone receiving assistance, for whatever reason, is clearly not self-supported anymore, and should DQ themselves. Continuing to ride the route, outside of the race, is great though--so the experience could still be great. But all of this may be pretty much moot, since fewer racers seem terribly interested in pushing their self-reliance and independence lately, and nobody is enforcing the rules (or keeping track of finishing times and places aside from record-setting efforts).

[tanadog]

The idea is that you are getting route info by traveling forward on the route.  Still seems harsh, but that's the justification.

Like the same info you would have if you rode the route the year before?

[Mathewsen]

That does seem like a harsh rule. I wonder what that's about? You'd think if you returned to the same spot you would be good to go ?

Re. the, 'never forward', rule, first let me just say you guys are all getting so soft. No one ever complained about this rule before social media was invented...(ok, just kidding...sort of).

I should clarify--and I just restored the proper version to the rules--there was a change to this rule the year after Chris B. had his asthma attack and Erik Lobeck his (legitimate for the rule in play at the time) DQ. The rule was discussed at length in that off-season with all the old-schoolers, including John Stamstad, and it was decided that with the advent of SPOT tracking and GPS logging, the, 'never forward on route', rule (by hitch) had become obsolete, and although necessary in the early era to ensure the route was always ridden (or walked) in it's entirety, and to provide some penalty for hitching, we now (generally) have the tech to ensure a rider returns to the site of the hitch. Was the rule harsh? Yes, if you were the one on the wrong end of it. If one was the guy in Max Morris' shoes, the punishment was totally appropriate. What it allowed for was a race to be totally turned on end because of a serious mechanical. That was exciting. It injected parity, and thoroughly tested integrity.

Anyway, sorry for any reigning confusion. The TD.org site crashed sometime in May and current rules page was corrupted beyond salvage (I was told), so bits / pieces of an earlier version of the rules got restored. I proofed it, but must have missed that reversion--or it else it has changed again since. Woops. I reviewed the full rules again just now and they look complete. ~Matthew

[Mathewsen]

Like the same info you would have if you rode the route the year before?

This was another reason cited for abandoning never forward. The route is now famously well documented / pre-ridden

[BobM]

Like the same info you would have if you rode the route the year before?

Yep, the same info you get by previous rides, blogs, call-ins, ACA Maps, Google Maps (and Street View), etc........

Looks like Matthew has already reinstated the modification.  Although it only refers to mechanicals, I believe it is also valid for medical emergencies as well.  In the spirit of the race, it SHOULD probably not apply to poor planning (like running out of food, etc):

"In the event of a serious mechanical that renders a bike unrideable, a rider may hitchhike[3] by motor vehicle in ANY direction to repair the problem. The location of the incident must be well documentedby SPOT tracker or other GPS logger. A rider may also receive assistance returning back to the exact location of the breakdown to begin forward progress. Again, the entire incident, form breakdown to return to the route must be fully documented by GPS."

[mountainjah]

Like the same info you would have if you rode the route the year before?

No...more like current weather, unexpected bridge washout, construction delays...a lot can change in 12 months.

And Toby....you are spot on!

[dp]

In the end it's personal integrity and how seriously you take the race and it's rules. I've personally heard people say, "Well, it's not sanctioned." Well, it should be sanctioned by your integrity and your willingness to line up and go. Otherwise you're touring.

+1 for integrity.

-dp

[the tortoise]

I nominate Toby to be Judge Jury and executioner!
If everyone is so concerned about rule infractions in essentially a "non event" then some sort of authority should be responsible for determining placing and DQ's.
I never understood the no forward hitch rule even back in the dark ages. Who could possibly benefit from hitching forward, then hitching back to recon the course?? Seems like you would be better off riding your bike or sleeping!
It is a much bigger advantage to have previously ridden the course in my opinion.
Also trail magic is nothing in comparison to the places that throw their doors open for racers during the Tour Divide. Imagine no Brush Mt Lodge or the Lodge in Polaris?
Then there is the issue of ITT's and trying to pick the best conditions. I say only N to S Grand depart runs should qualify for the records and only by rookies!
BTW;)