Tour Divide race discussion

[BobM]

In terms of records, maybe someone can clear this up for me, as I've been wondering this for awhile.

 The previous records that Jefe is currently chasing: am I incorrect in stating that neither of them had to ride the new Basin to Butte section, which as I understand it, was brutal. Certainly a time suck. Had Jefe not had to ride that section, and just rode the highway as the others did, he would be crushing those records right now. So it seems to me that Jefe is pushing his own record on a new course, as seems to the case for nearly every new annual attempt.

I guess my question is: How is the fact that every year there are more difficult additions added to the route remedied/compared with records established on easier routes from past years?

Thanks to anyone who can clear it up for me!

You have to look at it as a wash over time.  Even an established route will vary in difficulty from year to year depending on road grading, fresh gravel, ruts, washouts......


EDIT:  and the GDMBR does not always get tougher - some gravel sections get paved, services appear (like Montana High Country Lodge), etc.

[Mathewsen]

...the new Basin to Butte section, which as I understand it, was brutal. Certainly a time suck. Had Jefe not had to ride that section, and just rode the highway as the others did, he would be crushing those records right now.

Interpretations on the new dirt, depending on timing, rider subjectivity will vary widely. It is definitely more difficult, but not by enough that Jefe would consider citing it as a factor. Weather overall, on the other hand, has been a real antagonist... The new segment adds ten miles, more climbing, and if Jefe is a gauge, +/- 1.5hrs. In 2011 he rode the old route in about 2:20min, and this year the new route in 3:45min

[ZackR]

Hello Everyone, great discussion here, learning about this event is an eye opener.
I'm the founder of Ibis Cycles, and Jefe is riding a new and so far unreleased bike of ours.
Jefe has been amazing to deal with and it's good to see him doing so well.
It's an understatement to say I've been obsessively checking the Tour Divide Race Tracker since June 13th.
Just wanted to say thanks for the discussion. I'm in awe of all of you who have done this or are doing it.
-Scot

Great to see you here, Scot! If you haven't already named that new model, I would like to respectfully suggest you call it the "el Jefe." Seems like an appropriate name on several levels.

[Done]

...I thought the TM definition was somewhat settled back in the day...

For a growing number of racers, it has become an easily-deployed excuse to acquire water, food, shelter, supplies, etc. when convenient and desirable. If that's what you mean by "settled," then I suppose it is.

Nebulous and poorly-defined concepts are prone to a wide range of mostly-innocent but loose interpretations, especially by those new to the sport. Worse, they are easily abused by those looking for a means of justifying their their opportunistic impulses.

Since the pillar of most bikepacking races is "self support," I think that it's easier to just ditch the whole concept of trail magic rather than attempting to argue over every occurrence. Is it trail magic when you find a fresh Gu packet when you've already got enough food? Is it trail magic when you've planned poorly and found yourself out of water (and facing a 3-hour detour to save your hide), when a guy comes along on an ATV with a gallon of Dr. Pepper? Is it trail magic when you've decided to save weight by not carrying a spare tube, so you end up bumming one from another rider who was better prepared? Is it trail magic when a friendly rancher offers you a steak dinned, his guest cottage, and ride to town to get a new bivy bag? IS ANYONE ELSE TIRED OF PONDERING THESE THING?

Maybe it's time to recognize that trail magic is what it has actually become: a ticket to do whatever turns your crank. The precedent is clear and settled, right?

Or maybe there's still time to decide that the benefits of actually doing it yourself supersede the convenience of leaning on the vagaries of trail magic to justify the easy solutions to poor planning, bad luck, momentary weakness, etc. In other words, Do. It. Yourself. Dammit.

[MattL]

Did someone say a (true?) Winter start? Sign me up for that one. Keep flavor going: "riding a bike in winter is a funny way to...."

That's something I'd want a trail partner and at the very least, some sort of collapsible sled. The logistics would be so insane. Avalanche paths to consider. Woo boy. Don't know if the route would go. Have to start early enough that it's still, "winter" when you're finished? Nobo or Sobo? I would give it 60 days, fer sure.

I envision a tandem fatbike and a sled with a double yoke.  With the extra gear and supplies, I think the tandem might have the edge when it comes to winter bikeneering.

[mtbcast]

I'm going to be honest with you.  When Calvin was here with a table load of other riders he seemed kicked back.  I took him as a guy going for a personal best but not killing himself [in fact the café personnel were taking bets he'd never make it out of the state]. So I was as surprised as everybody else when he stepped it up the ranks.  For a young rider and a nice guy I rooting for him.

And wow just checked him out and 3rd place BEHIND THE TANDEM TERRIBLE?  I'm way overly impressed.

FWIW, Calvin hit the Goat Creek trail head in 3rd. He and Josh Kato came into Bolton Creek together too not terribly far behind Alex and Jefe.

[Mathewsen]

IS ANYONE ELSE TIRED OF PONDERING THESE THING?
Maybe it's time to recognize that trail magic is what it has actually become: a ticket to do whatever turns your crank. The precedent is clear and settled, right?

Yeah, I dunno, Toby. I'm not so fatigued over it partly cuz I don't hold down the shift key when i type (JK)...and i don't lose too much sleep over others' moral shortcomings.

I recall part of the problem with no TM whatsoever was 1) historical precedent for allowing it among the founding riders, and 2) truly enforcing such a rule, being against human nature, and not very neighborly to the giver, and all--not that I'm making excuses for taking TM too far. I don't claim to have the answer for all events or comers, and there's a slippery slope around every corner. What you're arguing for is borderline unsupported, and we call what we do self-supported, which is somewhere in between. Again, I dunno. One solution is to entirely eliminate placings and times and any reference to records, and then no one is really being harmed in a quantitative way by another's actions, save the part about reinforcing our reputation with locals for being a 'parade of water and food beggars'.

Just a guess here, but I'd be happy to take on a bunch of food beggars and private lodging poachers any day of the week and I'll beat em every time because while they're busy begging for food and water, or stopping short in dispersed communities to seek lodging, I'll be riding onward. I say this simply to point out comfort / security found in begging for your needs, doesn't make you faster. If anything it stresses you out.

[Two Tired]

http://www.nbcmontana.com/news/bicyclist-struck-and-killed-near-bozeman/26658856

Be safe out there.

Odd story...

[mtbcast]

TD14: Big David Wilson called in from Lima! His donut hole streak has ended!

http://mtbcast.com/site2/category/td14/

[mtbcast]

Odd story...

Any idea if this was a tourer or TD'er?

[Done]

Just a guess here, but I'd be happy to take on a bunch of food beggars and private lodging poachers any day of the week and I'll beat em every time because while they're busy begging for food and water, or stopping short in dispersed communities to seek lodging, I'll be riding onward.

I gotta say, that made me SMILE. Yes, the shift key even got involved

I wish that I had the strength to simply out-ride the weenies like you do. Alas, I don't--and it really bugs me when I see people cutting corners (innocently or willfully). Maybe it's just my over-inflated obsession with equality. But it seems that a number of people share it--although they aren't usually so public about it.

[kiwidave]

Nebulous and poorly-defined concepts

Toby, you write very eloquently and your blog is great. Having read all the posts here (and 2013 and 2012) it is clear that there is an ongoing discussion on the "rules" of ultra-racing (and in the comments on your blog). After reading all points of view posted and the written rules, it would seem that the "What would (or did) Matt/John/Craig/Ollie/Eszter/Jefe/Kurt/Jay do" is the litmus test of anything which is in a grey area.

To have a rule book cover everything would be impractical (i.e. even most government legislation fails in this task), so one must rely on the racers keeping to the spirit of the event when in doubt. The written rules are sufficiently clear to establish this spirit of the event and the TD won out over the GDMBR partially due to its intelligent take on appropriate rules.

I have not seen any evidence of a "growing number of racers" using TM as an excuse. Look at the Tour Divide movie and you'll see at least 12.50% of the finishing riders in 2008 breaking the simple, no interpretation, written rules. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it seems that a greater percentage of racers are actually becoming more compliant with the rules than in the past.

Leading by example is usually the best way to ensure compliance with any set of rules, and when looking at all the racers (from GC winners to 30+ day battlers) in the current and past years I see consistent compliance with the spirit of the the race being "self supported".

[Angler]

Any idea if this was a tourer or TD'er?

by the story, by the tracking, and by other reports it seems doubtful it was a TDR'r.  And hoping it wasn't any of the touring riders I've met so far.  Tragic on these small shouldered roads.

[mtbcast]

So, regarding Andreas Fassbender who broke his hip and is in the hospital up in Casper. I spoke with Patient Liaison Heather Thomas. She has graciously offered to take email greetings for Andreas. This might be preferred over calling him. I explained she might get a lot and she said that was fine. The only caveat is she is not there on the weekend so today and tomorrow she can print out some emails for him. Just put "Andreas Fassbender" in the subject line. Her email address is: hthoma @ wyomingmedicalcenter.org.

[samh]

Any idea if this was a tourer or TD'er?

I apologize for what a stereotyping response but the victim was on a bike with a step-through top tube, fenders, and was carrying a number of grocery bags.  The section of road it occurred on is frequented by bicyclists who can't afford automobiles and therefore must brave this dangerous section on their bikes.  Although my statement is purely speculative I expect the victim will prove to be someone in that category.  That paired with the fact that the location of the accident is around 70 miles from the nearest point of the Divide route makes that scenario highly unlikely.

[mikepro]

FWIW, Calvin hit the Goat Creek trail head in 3rd. He and Josh Kato came into Bolton Creek together too not terribly far behind Alex and Jefe.

I was intrigued by the "hey look at Calvin D trending faster" posts, and took a look at the splits.  Sure enough, he's the only one I see who's taken time out of Jefe since Lincoln, being ~60 hrs behind then, and recently ~48hrs behind at Salida.  His overall Race Flow line also supports the getting-faster-as-race-gets-longer trend.  Excellent riding.  I wonder what it's like to track and hunt down a tandem. 

Then, there's his great Spot okay message:

[mtbcast]

I apologize for what a stereotyping response but the victim was on a bike with a step-through top tube, fenders, and was carrying a number of grocery bags.  The section of road it occurred on is frequented by bicyclists who can't afford automobiles and therefore must brave this dangerous section on their bikes.  Although my statement is purely speculative I expect the victim will prove to be someone in that category.  That paired with the fact that the location of the accident is around 70 miles from the nearest point of the Divide route makes that scenario highly unlikely.

k I didn't get the part about the step-thru bar. Still tragic.

[kato]

Quote from: Angler on June 26, 2014, 01:57:19 PM
I'm going to be honest with you.  When Calvin was here with a table load of other riders he seemed kicked back.  I took him as a guy going for a personal best but not killing himself [in fact the café personnel were taking bets he'd never make it out of the state]. So I was as surprised as everybody else when he stepped it up the ranks.  For a young rider and a nice guy I rooting for him.

And wow just checked him out and 3rd place BEHIND THE TANDEM TERRIBLE?  I'm way overly impressed.

FWIW, Calvin hit the Goat Creek trail head in 3rd. He and Josh Kato came into Bolton Creek together too not terribly far behind Alex and Jefe.

I rode with/near Calvin the first two days and was very happy to see him again on the way out of Butte.  We shared a room on day one and then again on day 7 (I think).  I rode with/near him more than I rode with anyone else.  He is a super nice guy.  Definitely a guy I'm honored to have spent some time with.  He and I stayed at the Elkhorn Hotsprings near Polaris together and stayed up a bit too late chatting.  It was one of the highlights of my abbreviated TD attempt.  He is a very strong young rider.  The last time I saw him was during lunch at Jan's Cafe in Lima.  I could tell then that the race had really begun for him (mentally).  I also knew my race was beginning to end (physically).  I'm super stoked to see him going on so well.  You get a sense of guys you ride with a bit.  I got a sense that Calvin is VERY strong, not just physically.  I'm always glad to be proven correct.  Go Calvin!!!!  I'll be toasting to you when you hit Mexico.

Josh Kato

[Joaz]

Does anyone know whats going on with Bill Littmann? He's quite aways off route and well into Yellowstone. Bushwacking adventure?

[mtbcast]

I'm super stoked to see him going on so well.  You get a sense of guys you ride with a bit.  I got a sense that Calvin is VERY strong, not just physically.  I'm always glad to be proven correct.  Go Calvin!!!!  I'll be toasting to you when you hit Mexico.

Josh Kato

Sorry yours was cut short, Josh! Hope to see you back!