Tour Divide race discussion

[Done]

The race will evolve and I hope it finds a way to be inclusive of different categories of riders.

I hope that you're wrong, Ann. It is important that there are events in this world that demand full-on commitment and focus to accomplish. Things that people will attempt knowing that failure isn't just possible, but likely. Finishers, whether fast or slow, deserve the joy of succeeding on their own merits--not because they took an easier path.

Ultra-racing isn't about "inclusiveness." If people want to be included, they need to step up to the challenge--not expect the challenge to step down to them.

[mtbcast]

TD14: Hal Russell called in from Del Norte after a hot day yesterday! And Patrick Day called in with his finish call!

http://mtbcast.com/site2/category/td14/

[ZackR]

Thanks Toby, that's what the Tour Divide Race is all about. The reason it's interesting enough for us to follow the dots for weeks is that it's insanely difficult. Who would watch the cycling version of Calvinball for weeks at a time? Yeah, sometimes it's fun to make up your own rules as you go along, but that's not what racing is about. You are either competing in the race, within the established rules, or you are not. There are already several different categories of riders. Some finish in a little over two weeks, some in three weeks, some are on tandems, some like Awesome Alice do it on a single speed in what was record time not that long ago and still manage to look fabulous in front of the gate at Antelope Wells. How does she do that? I'd look like a zombie if I ever managed to finish that race.

[dream4est]

Leaving grants
Racing off the front of the Mid pack
Do t know if I ca. Hold all them off
But I am trying my best

[Done]

Leaving grants
Racing off the front of the Mid pack
Do t know if I ca. Hold all them off
But I am trying my best

Go Mark, go! You are a machine!

[Montana Miller]

I just got home after finishing up a couple days ago. Man, what a monster of a race. I heard a bunch of people say "once you get out of Montana, it's smooth sailing."

I've never heard a bigger lie. Everyday is harder and harder. Everything from trying to mate an ass full of sores to a frozen saddle before sunrise, to trying to choke down another cinnamon roll when my mouth was abraded and raw from all the sugar, to getting caught in an all day monsoon in New Mexico when I thought the only weather I'd have to worry about was wind and sun.

Huge amout of respect for anybody who finishes this thing, and especially for the people who are still out there plugging away.

The last week, while I was struggling for that border, I kept telling myself that there would be an end to the suffering. I wanted the end so bad.

When I got there, I wanted to keep heading south. Kinda wish I was still out there sleeping in the sage.     

[mikepro]

FINISH LINE!

Bravo, Alice!

[Donald]

It is clear from the discussion this year and in previous years, that this great race suffers from a deficit in administration. The fact that the official website is now several years out of date in many respects is just one example of this problem.

Matthew Lee has revealed what many must have suspected for a long time, that as a man with significant family commitments, he is not in a position to do all the necessary administration on a voluntary basis.

I think the answer is clear. Riders who wish to register for the race with Trackleaders should pay a much higher fee so that Matt Lee (or someone nominated by Matt) can be compensated for the necessary work. I suggest a minimum of $250 per registration. It is a small sum in relation to the overall cost of participation. In addition, those who wish to log on to follow the race on Trackleaders should pay a registration of $25.

Of course, the race would still be open to those who did not want to register with Trackleaders and in this case, they would have to submit some kind of evidence that they had completed the race in accordance with the rules.

I hope there will be a show of support for this proposal so that the race we are all committed to can continue on a sound footing.

[Krampus Snail]

Looking at the orange dot riders toward the end of the field, we see that quite a few of them skipped Brooks Lake Road in Wyoming, and apparently followed the entire course otherwise. Someone (whose track I can no longer find) tried to go up there, and very obviously got lost-- their track was all over the place. I wonder what the conditions at the turnoff to Brooks Lake were 9 or 10 days ago.

[Krampus Snail]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but what administration would the riders get for their two hundred and fifty dollars?

The $25 spectator fee is just silly. Few spectators would pay.

[PerryD]

I just got home after finishing up a couple days ago. Man, what a monster of a race. I heard a bunch of people say "once you get out of Montana, it's smooth sailing."

I've never heard a bigger lie. Everyday is harder and harder. Everything from trying to mate an ass full of sores to a frozen saddle before sunrise, to trying to choke down another cinnamon roll when my mouth was abraded and raw from all the sugar, to getting caught in an all day monsoon in New Mexico when I thought the only weather I'd have to worry about was wind and sun.

Huge amout of respect for anybody who finishes this thing, and especially for the people who are still out there plugging away.

The last week, while I was struggling for that border, I kept telling myself that there would be an end to the suffering. I wanted the end so bad.

When I got there, I wanted to keep heading south. Kinda wish I was still out there sleeping in the sage.     

Chatted with you briefly in front of the Basecamp in Helena. Congrats on your finish.

[Krampus Snail]

Congratulations, Montana!

[ZackR]

I don't see a lot wrong here. I don't see anything that needs fixing by throwing money at it. There are several reasons the more recent results are not posted on this site, and I don't think charging the racers or the spectators would have much effect on that. Sure, I'd like to dig up Jefe's time for his 2011 rookie run so I could compare it to his time this year, and also to Alice's single speed time, but I know a bit about why I will have to expend some minor effort to find that information. Bringing in a pile of money would introduce many layers of additional hassle, especially for Matt, and also raise questions about insurance, and on and on and on.

There are people complaining again this year. Let 'em complain. They broke the rules accidentally? They didn't know this or that was against the rules? Try that in court some time. It's the racer's responsibility to know and follow the rules. Don't like the rules? Then deal with it or find some other race.

Here is something I don't think is a coincidence: I watched Jefe learn about the TDR and other endurance races for at least a few years before he entered one. He read everything he could find, experimented with different ideas about gear and preparation, and planned for everything he could imagine happening. I know he sweated some "dot stalker" encounters early in his career, for fear he would have to call in and DQ himself because he couldn't bring himself to be rude to one of his neighbors and refuse some innocently offered illegal help, no matter how trivial. He knew it was his responsibility to manage those situations, on top of everything else he had to deal with. He has his fan club pretty well trained by now, fortunately. 

As someone pointed out earlier, it's still a race out there!

[dp]

One of the (many) complications of instituting a mandatory registration fee is that TD would be that much closer to being an "official" race, which brings with it requirements for things like permits and insurance.  Why Parks Canada doesn't show up at the Y on the second Friday in June is a mystery to me.  There's already an unwritten expectation that racers buy a set of ACA maps as a show of support.  There's also a donate button at trackleaders so we can all support Scott's efforts to bring us things like blue dots (and pink and yellow, and now orange dots), and even this very forum.  Same for Joe over at MTBCast.   But you're right - Matt gets nothing but our gratitude for the support he lends this event (and sometimes the abuse that results because of it).  Heck, Bill Littman might still be wandering around out there in Yellowstone if Matt hadn't picked up the phone.  I'd love to see a donate button on the TD website, so that at least he's getting something for his time.  A donation to the cause could become part of the unwritten expectation so participants.  Of course then there comes a sense of expectation and obligation (and possibly liability?) that Matt may not want to take on as the official administrator of the TD.  The current arrangement of being the "at will" eye-in-the-sky may suit him just fine. 

In any case, as a long time TD watcher and someday TD racer, I want to express my gratitude to Joe and Scott and Matt for this crazy obsession we know as Tour Divide.  And seriously folks, curtail the abuse - there's never a justifiable reason to be unkind to anyone.

Anyone else need a soap box?

-dp

[BobM]

One of the (many) complications of instituting a mandatory registration fee is that TD would be that much closer to being an "official" race, which brings with it requirements for things like permits and insurance.  Why Parks Canada doesn't show up at the Y on the second Friday in June is a mystery to me.  There's already an unwritten expectation that racers buy a set of ACA maps as a show of support.  There's also a donate button at trackleaders so we can all support Scott's efforts to bring us things like blue dots (and pink and yellow, and now orange dots), and even this very forum.  Same for Joe over at MTBCast.   But you're right - Matt gets nothing but our gratitude for the support he lends this event (and sometimes the abuse that results because of it).  Heck, Bill Littman might still be wandering around out there in Yellowstone if Matt hadn't picked up the phone.  I'd love to see a donate button on the TD website, so that at least he's getting something for his time.  A donation to the cause could become part of the unwritten expectation so participants.  Of course then there comes a sense of expectation and obligation (and possibly liability?) that Matt may not want to take on as the official administrator of the TD.  The current arrangement of being the "at will" eye-in-the-sky may suit him just fine. 

In any case, as a long time TD watcher and someday TD racer, I want to express my gratitude to Joe and Scott and Matt for this crazy obsession we know as Tour Divide.  And seriously folks, curtail the abuse - there's never a justifiable reason to be unkind to anyone.

Anyone else need a soap box?

-dp

Actually, the riders paid $40 each to Trackleaders this year, up from $25 in 2012.  I think Matthew has a handle on what he needs to make this thing worth his time (along with his love for the route and race).

As for spectators, YES, the PayPal Donate buttons on mtbcast and Trackleaders are a great way to show appreciation and support.

[Christopher R. Bennett]

It is clear from the discussion this year and in previous years, that this great race suffers from a deficit in administration. The fact that the official website is now several years out of date in many respects is just one example of this problem.

Matthew Lee has revealed what many must have suspected for a long time, that as a man with significant family commitments, he is not in a position to do all the necessary administration on a voluntary basis.

I think the answer is clear. Riders who wish to register for the race with Trackleaders should pay a much higher fee so that Matt Lee (or someone nominated by Matt) can be compensated for the necessary work. I suggest a minimum of $250 per registration. It is a small sum in relation to the overall cost of participation. In addition, those who wish to log on to follow the race on Trackleaders should pay a registration of $25.

Of course, the race would still be open to those who did not want to register with Trackleaders and in this case, they would have to submit some kind of evidence that they had completed the race in accordance with the rules.

I hope there will be a show of support for this proposal so that the race we are all committed to can continue on a sound footing.

That might work in a non-litigious society like New Zealand, but with all the risks running the TDR just imagine the potential for law suits? Don't forget that guy's family who tried suing Strava after he killed himself trying to get a record.

[sfuller]

I've been following the race via trackleaders and this forum for a few years now, and I'm currently planning on becoming a blue dot in 2015. Regarding the rule discussion -  I've read the rules a number of times and never found them to be that difficult to interpret. Maybe I'm different from other people in some way? Maybe I will find myself rethinking things once I'm in the midst of the event. However, I hope not. I will say, turning down a bed and a shower from someone will be difficult.

[Krampus Snail]

Andy Lawrence just finished. Congratulations, Andy!

[BobM]

I've been following the race via trackleaders and this forum for a few years now, and I'm currently planning on becoming a blue dot in 2015. Regarding the rule discussion -  I've read the rules a number of times and never found them to be that difficult to interpret. Maybe I'm different from other people in some way? Maybe I will find myself rethinking things once I'm in the midst of the event. However, I hope not. I will say, turning down a bed and a shower from someone will be difficult.

There really are only 2 rules:

1 - follow the course as described on the TD website.  A GPS file is provided free of charge.

2 - do it all yourself, using commercial businesses only.

All the rest of the "rules" are just clarifications and guidance brought about by folks wanting to know how much wiggle room they can use and still be in the Tour Divide, i.e. you can accept outside shelter like a barn or garage, but not indoor rooms; you can accept water but not food.  For those who want to know whether a guy selling tortillas out of his car is "legal", the answer is "What do you want your race experience to be?"

[THE LONG RANGER]

Why Parks Canada doesn't show up at the Y on the second Friday in June is a mystery to me.

Bet your Canadian Loonie they do (them, or the local police). They know about it (obviously) they're there; they just don't put their presence known. One great reason they don't raise a fuss is that it's a positive impact on the town, and nothing weird goes on at the start. You gotta keep it cool - if you don't it threatens the race. I think that may be the more dangerous part of ignoring some of the rules in the race. Like it or not, if you're in the race, especially in the Grand Départ, you're seen as part of a whole, and not an individual. Compote yourself professionally - it's a gentlemen's (and women's and person's) race, after all.  

A fee to race the race doesn't first make sense, and isn't possible in an administrative or logistical way.