Tour Divide Rules

[DenisVTT]

Someone in the TD discussion thread suggested moving the somewhat loose discussion on rules to a separate thread. I know there is an old existing thread out there that probably looked at every possible rule topic, but I think many people who are new to this board or to ultra racing are not really inclined to re-read dozens of pages before posting. I know I'm not.

The thread is titled Tour Divide Rules, not Rules. Probably most rules would apply to most ultra races, but I think this specific thread should focus on just the TD. Particularly:

- What are the rules?
- How are they understood?
- How are they respected?
- Who enforces them, and by what means?
- Do some rules need changing? Re-writing?
- Do we need new rules?
- Rules communications to international racers with different languages/cultures

There might be more but that's what comes to mind.

The 2 hot topics lately have been team riding and competitive finish time. What is (and is not) support and trail magic should probably be looked at as well.

Go for it!   

[Marshal]

now if we can just get the thread moderador to move (dump?) all the rule related comments here!

[THE LONG RANGER]

(all IMHO, of course)

I think one major thing to not expect a fellow racer in doing is be a ref. for another racer, not in this sort of self-supported, underground type of race - for the very fact that the racer is doing something (racing!) and they've got enough on their plate. More so, it's not even the organizers job to relegate you for most things - it's basically no one's job to babysit a racer.  No one should really be relegated during the race (as the rules make clear) and no one should be found guilty without first stating their case - again, only after the race should anyone be relegated.

Following rules and repercussions for breaking the rules (relegation) should be the responsibility of the rider themselves, whenever possible, which is most of the time. Show some integrity out there, which shouldn't be of short supply in a race like this. The only real rules that outside parties can do is from the trackleader page: really blatant course deviations and hitchhike faux pas. And I bet many of these are in error (problem reading the cues, problem with the GPS, and I'll say it, the wrong interpretation of the rules as they're written).  Riders alone must police their conduct

If someone wanted to, there's a million ways to cheat on the Tour Divide - and I'm not talking just sharing some candy between riders. Starting with the more ridiculous, you could have someone ride your bike for you - I guess this is a bad time to talk about my identical twin... Maybe the elephant in the room is that, when racing, you racers see infractions somewhat infrequently, but they're there - it's 100+ people on the field and we're all imperfect humans.

I'll give an example and I'm not looking for the culprit, cause I don't care enough and again, I don't know the whole story, just my take on it, as a sleep-deprived, calorie-deprived racer, who has one major goal in mind and a million steps of my own to finish to get to it: Somewhere out after Butte, there was a pretty blatant drop of gear - like a whole bag of it. To me, it didn't look like an accident: it looked like a very well-organized group of gear the person didn't want anymore and for some reason, wouldn't carry out with them. It made me angry, but I didn't go for blood - I just picked up the gear, put it under my jersey domestique-style and carried it out to the next trash bin I could find - same thing I'd do if I find trash in a Wilderness Area. Far as I'm concerned, that's what self-policing is all about. There's a big chance the person who dropped the gear did it without knowing and was going to trash it, in a bin, but I'll never know. I'm sure lots of people saw it (as I talked about it to a lot of people), and did nothing, as you get in the, "I'm in the middle of a race!" mindset.

If you look over the rules, it's not even listed that, "littering is not tolerated", but still, it's nothing I'd do. And then again, I wouldn't accept a pump in Butte from a fellow rider, a spare tube in Wise River from a fellow rider, or ever a ride to/from Jackson from the Moran Junction from anyone. Integrity!

[seabrin]

Perhaps what follows is unnecessary but given the intent of the TD, I think the rules are pretty much what they should be. (This is a bit off-topic but can TD and GDMBR be used interchangeably?) And now I'll attempt to explain the first sentence. Understanding the intent of the challenge is mandatory before any proper understanding of the rules can take place.

The Tour Divide challenge is based on one guiding principle: Cycle the GDMBR end-to-end, as fast as possible in a solo, self-supported fashion.

That's pretty straightforward, but I suppose ambiguity is possible given the brevity. So what clarifications are necessary? Certainly those things that would make a cyclist slower do not need to be enumerated. Never will there be a rule against walking or 4-pound sleeping bags. Only those things that would make a rider faster need to be limited or banned. That's a pretty long list, and not practical. Consider this: nowhere in the official rules is a helper motor listed as prohibited yet a visit from the family mid-route is verboten. This would appear to be wildly out of balance were it not for the understood intent of the GDMBR. It is also important to note that the intent must be understood and supported by the GDMBR community. In this case, the word cycle is not in question. There is common agreement on its meaning. In short legs yes, motor no.

Another point to consider: smart phone's and satellite phone's ability to follow another racer's progress is not banned but as little as three miles off-route is enough for relegation. Anyone that's spotted a cyclist up the road while on a solo ride knows the power of competition to motivate (even if only one rider considers it competition). If a rider had instant access to a competitor's position, is there any doubt that the rider would gain motivation? Would that motivation provide more forward momentum than cutting the course? Probably. Again, let's consider intent. There is less agreement over the phrase solo, self-supported fashion than cycle or end-to-end. So where does solo, self-supported fashion begin? After all we don't make our own bikes (except Mark Farnsworth), manufacture our own gear, or grow our own food. The rules address this nicely in my humble opinion.

From rule 2: "The intent is to ride unsupported between towns, and function self-supported when in towns."

It is my interpretation that unsupported and solo are synonymous in the excerpt above. It is here that I think the crucible lies. Solo; self-contained, solitary, individual, alone. We are in the province of the ideal. It exists separate and apart from the laws of man. As regards the ideal of solo, if I derive any forward momentum by the actions of another person (outside of the rules) then I violate the intent. And this is where the construct falls apart.

How to take an intensely personal (solo) effort and offer it up alongside others for public consumption? Inevitably, a cross-pollination occurs as community infects the individual. I don't mean this in any sinister way. It is a natural consequence of the human desire for community, and one that has to be guarded against if the intent of the race is to be preserved. It's a problem that cannot be solved, only mitigated by judicious tinkering.

[febikes]

Another point to consider: smart phone's and satellite phone's ability to follow another racer's progress is not banned but as little as three miles off-route is enough for relegation. Anyone that's spotted a cyclist up the road while on a solo ride knows the power of competition to motivate (even if only one rider considers it competition). If a rider had instant access to a competitor's position, is there any doubt that the rider would gain motivation? Would that motivation provide more forward momentum than cutting the course? Probably. Again, let's consider intent. There is less agreement over the phrase solo, self-supported fashion than cycle or end-to-end. So where does solo, self-supported fashion begin? After all we don't make our own bikes (except Mark Farnsworth), manufacture our own gear, or grow our own food. The rules address this nicely in my humble opinion.

Lots of people make our own bikes by assembling parts.  I simply assemble the tubes using a TIG welder...  It's not like I have a mine in my back yard and dig the ore out of the ground.

I will share one thing that I think *might* have been slightly questionable.  Some people might even consider this outside help.

Each day my friend would text me the position of other riders who I was interested in.  I was also able to call my friend from my cheap dumb mobile phone to ask for information about rider positions.  Was this cheating?  Was I using my friend to "help" me in a forbidding way?  My phone was a cheap flip phone model so I was not able to use any web surf myself.  Once I had my friend on the line I could ask him to look at the web page and give me information.  The information helped me motivate and helped me plan things a bit.

Was I cheating to have "information help"?  

[febikes]

Since I dropped out of the race I will take no offense about presenting this to Matt Lee and Scott Morris for judgement.  I don't really need to bother them but at some point I might run into one of them and ask.  Basically I figure they should decide.

In my view using a flip phone like this should be fine.  Most people have friends for cell phone conversation.  There is no real way to make the tour divide into a race of monks.  Also others had "smart" phones with web browsers and apps that provided similar information.

The IOC even gave up on the idea of banning caffeine or Advil because of similar concerns.  Sure caffeine and advil can improve performance but the IOC simply decided that enforcement would be impossible.

It would be interesting to know if TheArtist thinks it was cheating because I was mostly asking about his position when he was chasing me or I was chasing him.  In a sense, my view of the rules and the view of the rules that my competitors have are really the only views that matter to me.  I would feel bad if the people I was racing against though I was cheating.  If I ever actually race TDR again I will make a point to ask Matt Lee and/or Scott what they think.

The information about the race and conversation with my friends via cell phone added a lot of joy to the experience so I would be sad if it was cheating.

[THE LONG RANGER]

What does seem to get people stressed is the issue of "interpretation." It's all fine and dandy to say things like, "race with integrity," but to different people, this means different things. Not because some people have integrity and others don't, but because (for example) one person thinks that "no support" means that they can't accept a spare tube from another rider, while another person thinks that "no support" means that it's OK to accept a tube from another rider (or even a bystander), as long as it wasn't planned. Both riders firmly believe that they are being fair and honest, and that they are interpreting the rules correctly.

I had a casual talk with ML about this personally, and he had an interesting take on this problem. When I told him about my pump snafu in Lincoln (lost my pump! Broke my backup!), he didn't see any problem with me using another racer's pump, as it's within a greater idea of The Code of the West - ie: you don't leave someone in the desert without water.

I waited until I could get serendipitous help from a passing bike tourer, which I still feel follows the spirit of the rules, since having another racing on route during in ITT just wouldn't happen. ML said it would be OK. It's a little example of how the Grand Départ is actually different from an ITT. Riding with others (unplanned) is another example of how GD and ITT are slightly different. It was to the point that Glacier Cyclery had sent a pump to Lincoln (through a friend) and I wouldn't accept it, as the rules clearly note that very example. It felt like shit to do so, as they're super fans of the race and only trying to help out. To have to deny their help felt weird.

In the end, it is the racer's race, against only themselves. Do what hopefully you're proud of.

[TruthRider]

Here's how I addressed the cell-phone issue in my blog: "Taking and making phone calls (or e-mail) is fine, as long the purpose is not to arrange for support, locate other racers, or otherwise seek a strategic advantage. In other words, it’s OK to talk to your boss or tell your kid at bedtime that you love him, or even tell your spouse that you saw a moose."

I personally don't have any trouble following that rule, and I don't think that it takes any joy out of the experience!

I'd say that speaking to your spouse/loved ones/friends can definitely be seen as gaining a strategic advantage, through motivation. Consider: you're down and out, strongly considering quitting, then speak to your husband and he tells you to suck it up and keep going.  Newly inspired, you get back in the saddle and finish strong. 

How is that different than learning that there are two riders in front of you within catchable distance, and you, newly inspired, get back in the saddle and finish strong?


At the end of the day I think there's not much place in the world of these "underground" races for this discussion about rules.  If you are that concerned about the fine print, then it seems you'd be much better off joining the well regulated races.  There are tons of them.
** Note:  I'm not suggesting NO rules, but rather that the rules as they're defined seem to work quite well for 99% of us.  Ride solo, self supported, and don't ask for help but accept it if offered.  Seems pretty easy to interpret.

The fine print details can be worried about by, well, the people who worry about the fine print details.  And for those people, I say that if you're that worried about it, most organized races have lots of fine print you can scour.  I had to break up a neighborhood game of kickball last weekend, because the 8 and 9 year old boys were arguing incessantly about every play, whether it was on the foul line, whether it bounced OVER the line, etc.  It pretty much sucked all the joy out of the game.

[tanman1337]

This kind of feels like all the other professional sports in the world today, there is soooo much concentration on breaking the rules (i.e. drug testing and relegation of past titles and medals) that it takes all the fun out of it. Just hearing that people want to take away Lance's Tour finishes awhile ago makes me sick... who really cares. I completely agree with you Truth, sometimes people worry about some really fine print shit. I am definitely into bike packing for one reason... ME. I don't give a shit if I finish 5th or 20th. I'm completing these challenges because when I get to the finish line it feels great

[TruthRider]

Apologies if my post sounded snarky.  In no way did I mean to suggest - and in no way did I state - that people shouldn't be discussing the fine details of the rules here in this forum.  However, my view is that the discussion of the fine details of the rules takes away from the point of these races, and for me it takes some of the shine off the races.  And I had thought that this forum was a good place to read about others' views and express my own.  It appears as though a small minority here believe this is a good place to express opinions - as long as they're not dissenting opinions ...

I'm Chuck Janecek.  I had a brutally awesome experience as a CTR rookie last year.
I'm not sure why anyone would even care what my name is, but I don't use TruthRider to hide my name ... just happen to Ride an Ellsworth Truth.

[Georg66]

To Thine Own Self be True
(William S.)

[DenisVTT]

Ride solo, self supported, and don't ask for help but accept it if offered.  Seems pretty easy to interpret.

It may seem pretty easy, but just that "accept it if offered" statement has generated tons of Internet and in-person arguments about whether trail magic is indeed acceptable, and if so what amount and in which fashion.

[seabrin]

Was I cheating to have "information help"?

I can't answer this. First of all, congratulations on the attempt this year. As I see it, this is where the community begins to encroach on the individual. Ultimately Mark, it's your call. These are the questions I would ask myself. How mentally demanding do I consider the race? Did the phone calls mentally "lighten the load?" Finally, does a change in mental state help me push on? Personally, I am still undecided on this topic. I will be riding next year and I struggle with "monk vs rockstar" approach. At a minimum, I know I won't be able to go three weeks without talking to my wife and daughter.

In the end, it is the racer's race, against only themselves. Do what hopefully you're proud of.

+1, well said and congratulations on your ride this year! The problem here is the GC (though I am not advocating its end, only a deemphasis). It demands rules. How else to compare efforts if not by equality of challenge?

If you are that concerned about the fine print, then it seems you'd be much better off joining the well regulated races.

+1, yes, yes, yes. Again the hyper-focus on the GC demands rules and their dutiful enforcement. In my opinion if you are concerned with another participant's effort then this might not be the race for you. Yes, it is difficult to watch another racer infringe the rules and not say anything, especially if they better your effort in the process. Insistance on recognizing the best effort is a dangerous road, and leads away from the intent of the GDMBR. Perhaps this is naive, but the emphasis should be on challenging the self, not the world.

It occurs to me, once again, that interwebz forums are a shitty place to discuss rules--or anything that requires rational and nuanced thought about complicated ideas. For whatever reason, they just seem to bring out the worst in people.

Don't despair. Humans just aren't that good at the communication of ideas independent of the individual. The only way we get better is to keep trying. But I'm all for discussing this over beers!

[seabrin]

So I'm just spit-balling here but I've been turning over the idea of "mental assistance" while on the trail and I thought I'd throw it out to the community for comment. I keep going back to the line in Rule #2 that states "the intent is to ride unsupported between towns and function self-supported when in towns." I will likely be taking my iPhone as it is unsurpassed for functionality versus weight. Of course, smartphones provide ample mental distraction in the form of entertainment, race information, and a lifeline to friends and family. Some ground rules are needed so I'm not tempted once the race begins. I think I've settled on the following guidelines for my attempt next year.

1. No phone calls (except emergencies) while on the trail assuming there is coverage.
2. No web browsing on the phone AT ALL.
3. While on the trail under non-emergency conditions, the phone may only be used for a GPS, camera, and notepad.
4. Phone calls may be placed from the iPhone while in town. Any discussion of the race are limited to the details of my effort and experiences.
5. No blue-dot watching AT ALL including the bikepacking.net forums (or similar).
6. Entertainment (music, movie, book, or audiobook, etc.) is permissible while in town or bivy.

My goal here is to minimize the influence of external factors on my decision-making and overall effort. There is no doubt that hearing the voices of my wife and daughter will raise my spirits and knowing how much they will have sacrificed to allow me this chance will undoubtedly push me on so that has to be limited somehow. The rest of the motivation needs to come from my head and its reaction to my immediate situation. I am definitely leaning more monk than rockstar which fits my personality as I'm fairly introverted. In conclusion, I want to make clear that I'm trying to decide what will work for me and no one else.

[DenisVTT]

Lots of people make our own bikes by assembling parts.  I simply assemble the tubes using a TIG welder...  It's not like I have a mine in my back yard and dig the ore out of the ground.

I will share one thing that I think *might* have been slightly questionable.  Some people might even consider this outside help.

Each day my friend would text me the position of other riders who I was interested in.  I was also able to call my friend from my cheap dumb mobile phone to ask for information about rider positions.  Was this cheating?  Was I using my friend to "help" me in a forbidding way?  My phone was a cheap flip phone model so I was not able to use any web surf myself.  Once I had my friend on the line I could ask him to look at the web page and give me information.  The information helped me motivate and helped me plan things a bit.

Was I cheating to have "information help"?  

The most important thing is that if you didn't think you were violating a specific rule, then you were not cheating. Period. Cheating involves consciously violating a rule to gain an advantage.

So the question is whether that violates the letter, or the spirit, or both, of the outside help rule.

I'll be honest: I usually have strong opinions on a lot of things, but I can't formulate one on this. I just have no idea.

One thing I'd say: when I broke my rear shifter last year, a friend of mine figured out where I could find one about 15 miles off route, and wrote that address on our local club's forum, which I read while being stopped for half a day in Platoro due to that broken shifter. By that time, I had already located that same info all by myself (using my phone). But I did tell him that he shouldn't try to help me this way in the future, as I was risking relegation if I were to use that info. I don't really know whether I was really breaking the rule, but I just didn't want to take a chance.

[bmike-vt]

One thing I'd say: when I broke my rear shifter last year, a friend of mine figured out where I could find one about 15 miles off route, and wrote that address on our local club's forum, which I read while being stopped for half a day in Platoro due to that broken shifter. By that time, I had already located that same info all by myself (using my phone). But I did tell him that he shouldn't try to help me this way in the future, as I was risking relegation if I were to use that info. I don't really know whether I was really breaking the rule, but I just didn't want to take a chance.

it does get sticky, doesn't it.
i think one of the guys from salsa was able to 'overnight' (still took a couple of days) a part from his QBP account to somewhere on route.
all legit, as far as the race shook out, and he was transparent about it all.
but he did have access to folks who could locate exactly what he needed, and figure out how to get it to him. after hours too, if i remember.
not something every rider has access to, but other riders may live at altitude, or may have ridden the route before and know all the good bivy and water spots, etc. etc.

down this road lies madness, as is becoming apparent.

as far as texting and calling friends go, if riders have access to blue dot and trackleaders, the mobile web, and google, then just call your friends a 'dumb phone app' and you are good to go. just wait until you get those google glasses linked up with a sat phone. you'll be able to have board meetings, hang outs, answer questions about your ride, post a video diary, hell, even live stream riding the rail trail. and someone will hack that to register your heart rate and power tap information... etc. etc.

technology isn't going away. trying to limit what can be done with it certainly might play into the rules. sort of like GPS or paper only cues.

maybe the TD can be setup with a trainer and video projector like roller races. have google earth scrolling you along the route. you ride (stationary) as long as you can. hop off, eat, retreat to your sleeping pad, and jump back on. level playing field. referees watching over the shoulder, and fans can come and go as they please on the other side of the mirrored wall. you don't know where your competitors are on route, and you are isolated into a white room...

[fotooutdoors]

I sort of think that TD (and mountain bike ultras in general) have come to a sort of crossroads.  Is it a race, or is it a quest/self-challenge/etc?  If it is the former, than we need precise rules, as they level the playing field among competitors.  If it is the latter, than perhaps the community will recognize the achievement of completion as the greater merit if within some generally defined bounds (say, the current rules).

I believe someone here likened bikepack racing to randonneuring.  I like that analogy, in that randonneuring (as far as I understand it) primarily recognizes completion (and this community probably should also recognize attempts, given the grand scale of these races), not the order.  However, the order is published.

As a result, if one rider wants to use their cell phone every day, great, that is their experience.  If another rider wishes to ride the main route without any snow reroutes, great, they should be recognized for their ride. 

Does this make sense to those who have been on the divide or other similar races? I have not ridden, let alone raced, any of these routes, so pardon me if I am a bit naive.

[bmike-vt]

I suggested on the last rules thread that there could be a like minded set of 'rules' similar to randonneuring.
My experience with long rides started there, and is moving into bike packing. Up to now only 'touring' albeit fast for me (slow for some esteemed racers on this forum). But with hopes on events in my future. Currently I organize a handful of rando and dirt road events in VT.

Rando event results are listed alphabetically, and can be sorted by time if you want to know how you stacked up. And then there are folks who try to finish PBP (the grand-daddy of rando events) in under a certain time to qualify for the Charly Miller Society. He rode PBP in 1901, as a self supported (or unsupported) rider, finishing the 1200k course in 56h40m. Any US rider who finished under that time is inducted into the Society.

There are also groups using rando events as a way to go fast - the Cyclos Montadnards are setting up alternate awards such as the R60,R70,and R80 awards (finishing an entire series in 60%,70%, and 80% of the allotted times). They also have set courses riders or groups of riders can challenge. Scenic, tough course with lots of climbing. There is also the Society de Adrian Hands - for anyone who completes BPB in Adrian's time or greater (88h50m), so those that ride slower, or simply like to sleep, are not left without recognition.


What I don't think 'fits' is the notion of a 'race'. One has unspoken and unofficial 'course records' on rando events, but they are not held as the standard for finishers (although some people chase them...). I often lure some of the local club riders out to my events by letting them know what the current fastest course time is... so far its only worked once, and was broken by a time trial bike riding speedster, only to be reclaimed the following year by a couple riding together - he on an old Bridgestone and she on a custom bike, both with handlebar bags, fenders, and dyno lights. They took 20 minutes out of the TT time.

The spirit of the rules of rando riding would fit nicely, but the finer points do not mesh well with the current TD style rules. Rando riders can accept outside support (pretty rare on most events I've been involved with - and only at checkpoints), riders can help one another, draft, work together, etc. When you are out on course, its you and anyone else on the event, should you find each other. You live off the land - a PBP finisher actually passed out somewhere in France, was taken to hospital and scanned, passed a kidney stone, then was able to get back to his bike and finish the ride with an hour to spare... hardcore.

Here are the 'Rules for Rider's from RUSA.org, the US 'officiating' body: http://www.rusa.org/brvreg.html


Like I said, they don't really fit. But riders can use GPS, cell phones, local services, plan ahead for sleep stops on longer events, call out pizza to a point on the route (is that illegal under TD rules?) work together (navigation, pace lines, mechanicals), help one another, etc.


What I do like about them is that there is established tradition, and that even a go fast rider who happens to come upon someone in distress or with a mechanical would stop and help if possible. I also like that there is not 23 pages of rules discussing when and where someone can use a smartphone. The tech genie is out of the bag. You either ban it all outright, or live with it - and since BlueDot and Trackleaders are sanctioned by Matt Lee and others, I don't see that going away.


 

[mbeardsl]

I believe someone here likened bikepack racing to randonneuring.  I like that analogy, in that randonneuring (as far as I understand it) primarily recognizes completion (and this community probably should also recognize attempts, given the grand scale of these races), not the order.  However, the order is published.

My stance is if you call it a race, then race it and show integrity in how you go about racing.  That's for XC to TD.  If you wouldn't allow it in an XC race don't allow it in ultras (being a jerk, taking shortcuts, blah blah blah).  And no that doesn't work the other way If you can't/won't/don't race with integrity then don't race or be ready to be relegated for rules violations by honest folks.  If you don't call it a race then enjoy the experience of touring the route and forget about the time it takes you.  I don't see a middle ground.

Rando events and other grassroots endeavors don't call themselves races in order to avoid costs of insurance, getting permits, and the liability of contestants hurting themselves and breaking rules/laws etc.  If they were serious about it not being a race they wouldn't post times.  I laugh every time I see the rules for events like that that claim its not a race just because they don't sort their list by time.  If time is involved, its a race. Period.  If it's an accomplishment based activity then post lists of finishers and give some high fives.  Want to race your buddies on a trail but don't want to go through all the hassle?  Call it a self supported competitive group ride, an ITT, or a hullabaloo.

[bmike-vt]

Randonneuring events do pay LAB insurance. FWIW.
I think most randonneurs would disagree with you on the 'race' aspect. But maybe that is different with the folks you ride with. You can't arrive at a control too early ( or you wait) and you can't arrive late (or you won't be an official finisher). Sort of like the arbitrary cut off for the TD. There is a tradition to the time / speed requirements.

I don't think they are apples to apples at all, just throwing out my experience.

If you want it to be a race, then there are likely to be rules. Which seems this is about.

I'm confused by your last line. Isn't that what TD and other events are? No prizes, no insurance. Group ride semi official competitive (but not race) race?