TourDivide wiki page?

[febikes]

What do you guys think of creating a wikipedia page as the "official" web content for the event, results and event information etc.  

With wiki anyone in the world can participate in the edits of the page and as such I think it would work as a better model for this type of event.  As a community we could declare this to be the official website for tour divide and ask that the owner(s) of tourdivide.org simply update the site to redirect traffic to the wiki page and/or have a small place holder content with the remaining content on wiki.

In order to make the above idea "real" we would need community support and an effort to get the results and information about the event into wiki.  

Since wiki is a community editing environment I think the idea might work long term.  Using an approach that is free and does not put all the editing power in a small number of hands seems to make sense for this type of grass roots event.

What do the rest of you guys think?  Can someone help me out by making a few edits to the page.  Edits are as simple as clicking edit in the wiki page.  I think it would be really cool if someone could go onto wiki and put in the 2011 results.

I created a placeholder page on wiki with one paragraph.  Anyone can edit this page.  If people like the idea we could get a results page on the site as well.  All you need to do is click edit on the following page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_Divide_Bicycle_Race

-Mark

[annoying crack]

So I can just edit that page and put my name on top? Cool!

[sluttyduck]

Welcome to the wonderful world of grassroots underground racing.
The website has about the same info as it had in 2009 which is pretty adequate in my opinion.
Your friends will believe you when they see your spot moving south(or north).

[elobeck]

I think having multiple pages with potentially conflicting results/information may do more harm than good. I would also suggest that ideally people are doing this event for themselves to satisfy their own sense of adventure/sportsmanship. The posting of names on a results page should ultimately be secondary to the original intent of grassroots underground racing. (In my very humble opinion). If you want people to "know,", point them to the leaderboard, which will likely be up and running.

[febikes]

My feeling is that the doing such an event is already silly but it looks even more silly when two different websites exist and both are fairly out of date.  The tourdivide.org website has not had updates for many months and makes it look like there were no 2012 results.  The greatdividerace.com race is also out of date and I don't even know if the event exists for 2011.  The tourdivide.com website exists to sell some video but has no event information.

I am planning on doing the 2012 TDR and will be in Banff on the 8th of June for the start but really if results are posted someplace they should be up to date.  The idea that results from 2011 don't yet exist seems strange because we are getting close to the 2012 start.

It seems that right now the model of a single person owning the content for the websites and the posting of results is not working.  As a "grass roots" event my feeling is that singular control (or neglect) of the event by a small number of individuals is unhealthy.  The idea of using wiki would put the control back in the hands of the individual blades of grass and get something up and running.

Putting the editing of information about the event and results in more hands seems like a defense against the neglect that can occur if one person runs the site.

[krefs]

What more do you need? The website has the rules, the route details, and the start date. That's just as much as the web pages for most of the other self-supported mountain bike ultras have. The results aren't up from last year, but I'm not sure that warrants trying to steal away control of the event from someone. That is, unless you want to recreate the politics and confusion of the GDR-TD scuffle all over again (and tourdivide.com has no affiliation with the race whatsoever). Grassroots events require someone, or a small group, at the helm to make decisions. Decision making by a loosely-knit forum community simply will not work. The important decisions have already been made, so all you have to do is show up, follow the route and rules, and keep pedaling. It's as easy as that.

[febikes]

Ya, I don't want to create any conflict.  The current situation is a little broken.  I would not want to make it any worse but I don't see any harm in wiki pages existing alongside the other out of date websites.  The worse case is that the wiki will simply be another out of date place but the ability for others to edit it might make the model work.  After all wiki knows the results of the Tour de France and other sporting events so I don't see any harm in it existing.

[THE LONG RANGER]

Here's the 2011 results, more or less:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhrUeVyiFtrJdGY5Y2o3SW9ieG9melMyMmZ5TVE5d1E#gid=0

It's very complicated, as there were different snow/fire detours, directions, "categories", questions on relegated riders and the like. It somewhat defies organization and I doubt it'll ever get sorted out. Similar things are going to happen in 2012, if the numbers are similar, the fire detours happen, etc. It's a huge, sloppy course. But this sort of what we, "know", given incomplete information and varied amount of cooperation.

But the results you put on the wiki are fair too simplified. I don't know if that makes things better, or worse.

I'm sort of with Kurt - rules, route and suggested start time. -

Or pick your own start time. Or your own route. Or rules.  It's a challenge against yourself, really.  This is one of many different challenges you can take and really, it's sort of endless. And fun. And creative.

I can't believe more fragmentation hasn't happened, already. Or at least, more challenges people just put together and say, "Hey, in the area? Have a few days? Try this!" Locally, there are many courses, with many Fastest Known Times thought to be in orbit around the ether. Perhaps that's where the information should be shared (locally). Perhpasa killer site (if we're talking about re-inventing things) would be this site:

http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/

Made better. 

But, an underground challenge between yourself and a course, given a set of constraints, formulated as self/unsupported rules is a lot different than what the Tour de France is.

And I've babbled quite enough.

[febikes]

I like the idea of TDR as a race with others.  I also like simply riding along on my own as well.  My view is that if it is a Tour Divide "Race" then it sorta makes sense that there be some results.

As you pointed out results are complex and this is a grass roots event.  The bad thing about a traditional website is that the results listed on the traditional website (or not listed) will reflect the strength and organization of the person or people running the website.  Right now it seems both TourDivide.org and greatdividerace.com are missing in action because I get no response from the website admins and no results for last year.

I know for a fact that I don't want to run the event and really it seems that with such a grass roots thing no one person should run the event.  The thing is in order for it to be a race there needs to be agreed on rules and agreed on results.  The concept that these things come about through agreement is consistent with the way wiki works.  Basically Wikipedia gives a framework and tool that would allow the "grass" to run the event themselves. 

Right now, it seems the "grass" is trying to run the event via Google docs and this forum.  To some extent the grass seems to be working to fill a gap with the stale websites.  I simply think wiki is a better then Google docs because it becomes a more automatically open to multiple editors.  As information based system I think wiki may be able to help fill the gap in the event organization.

Right now the fragmentation is so silly that more and more I am looking at 2012 as a tour rather then an event.  It seems that in 2011 some people going north, some going south, some going one route, some going another.  It would really be nice to have a more defined and single race. 

It's something to think about for the future and the last thing I would want to see is an already fragmented event become more fragmented.  I can't even picture doing a wiki page for the complexity of all the sub categories and different directions from 2011 but wiki is open so if anyone is interested they are welcome to simply start putting results there.

Right now my plan is to start from Banff on June 8th (hopefully that is the correct date).  In any case I am planning on following the route from the tourdivide.org website unless something official looking or sounding seems to change that route.  Hopefully I can get a spot registered on track leaders as well. 

[DenisVTT]

I think I understand where febikes comes from. Here is why:

For me, I went into last year's TD with 2 goals: not being eaten by a grizzly, and finishing. Getting to the other end, that was it. Finishing, for me, especially within a GC qualifying time (and in one piece...) looked like a formidable accomplishment of its own. The "challenge between myself and the course", as the Artist puts it, was all I aspired to. I thought I would just start riding at my pace, some (most? all?) would go faster than me, others would go slower, and I couldn't care less.

That all changed in the first 30 minutes.

There were 15 of us at the Mexican border going NoBo. It didn't even take a few miles for a group of 4 of us to get clearly ahead of the rest of the pack, going strong. That's when my competitive juices started to flow. "Maybe I can do pretty well, after all", I thought. I'm in the top 4 already. Maybe top 5 NoBo isn't that crazy.

The event had changed. From just a personal challenge, it had now become a race. And I was definitely in it!

Of course, you don't decide the top 5 of a 2,700-mile race in the first 30 minutes. In the hours and days ahead, people passed me. I passed some back. One guy at some point got some 240 miles in front of me. That's more than the distance between Washington and New York. Still, I was laser-focused on catching him. All the while being pursued by another who was just 50 miles behind me (right on my ass on the TD scale). Anytime I'd get into a town, I'd power up my cell phone to check the Leaderboard. Was I reducing the gap with the guy in front of me? increasing it with the guy behind?

On the next to last day, I actually rode at race pace, trying to catch the guy that was still in front of me. And on the very last day, up to the very last mile, the last few yards in fact, I kept looking over my shoulder to see if he wasn't catching me back. A 2,700 mile race, and I'm looking over my shoulder in the last few yards!

All that to say that to me at least, the TD turned out to be more than a personal challenge: it was a race! Definitely a race.

And a race has results. It's not just how long it took you, it's how many people finished in front of you, how many people finished behind, how many hours (days!) behind the guy that finished in front of me. Same for the guys behind me. Yeah, I kinda knew the results as I finished, but knowing that you finished a few hours in front of somebody (and days behind another) isn't the same as knowing the exact times. After such an effort trying to make my finishing time and place what they were, such exact times and places have meaning. At least they do for me.

Having said that, I have too much respect for Matthew Lee and the original organizers, as well as for the event itself, to do anything that would jeopardize what they've created. A wiki would be fine with me, but only if it is 1. fine by them and 2. fine by the community. In the meantime, I can live with TheArtist's Googledoc spreadsheet.

[febikes]

I have lots of respect for the event and community but right now the web sites seem to be dead so I am going to update the wiki to post results 2011 (southbound grand depart riders).  Hopefully at some point some type of results will also be posted on the tourdivide.org site.

In terms of the "race" for tour divide I have listed the south bound race results for riders who started with the Grand Depart.  Anyone can edit the wiki so if someone thinks the results are different they are free to change them.  Wiki has tools to resolve conflicts so I think it can work out long term.  If results are ever posted on tourdivide.org we can reference them as well.

In terms of the future of the event it seems to me that running the "race" will work better if it avoids fragmentation.  Basically in my mind the race should start on a given day for a given route with a given group of people all going the same direction.  The idea that two people claim to have won the 2011 event seems really bad for the sport.  Having groups going south and groups going north is two different races so you can't really think of them as in the same race.

For TDR 2012, how do people feel about simplified rules.

• Start's on June 8th
• Everyone uses the same route and same detours
• One listing of results for the 2012 "race"

The idea of different starting dates and different directions is fine but those efforts seem like ITT rather then the "race".

[elobeck]

How is the website "dead"? It lists the appropriate start date. The google doc about this years starters seems like an adequate tool to see who you are racing against, which is a fun thing. Do we really need more?

[Jilleo]

I agree with others that you're trying to change something that already basically works. The GDMBR isn't a race, it's a route, and the Tour Divide was created as a "group ITT" on this route. People can argue what this means to them or means at all, but the fact is there will always be people starting on different dates and gunning for their own fastest possible time. Runners going for "records" on specific routes already have this figured out with the "Fastest Known Time" concept. http://wiki.runnersworld.com/index.php/Fastest_Known_Time This concept (and possible forum-based record) will work for the GDMBR, and seems to be happening already.

[febikes]

How is the website "dead"?

No results from last year.  No response from the website when I tried to contact them about this year.  Not sure how dead it is but it does not seem to be very alive plus there two web sites with results from 2010 for GDR and TDR races.

Who "won" tour divide race last year?  Was it Jay or Kurt or was there no official winner?

I plan to do the event this year as a trackleaders.com event.  For now, the only results that I think exist in any meaningful way are the ones from trackleaders.com.

[DenisVTT]

I am going to update the wiki to post results 2011 (southbound grand depart riders).  

So no northbound?

[febikes]

So no northbound?

Feel free to update the wiki page and/or create another wiki page for the northbound race.  My view is that this is a different event.  Right now the only think on the web that looks like official results is the trackleaders.org page.  I updated wiki based on the track leaders page because the google docs file seems too hared to organize as "race results". 

In my mind the Tour Divide "race" is one thing and the Tour Divide ITT is another thing.  I don't personally have much interest in the ITT because on any given day or any given year conditions change so it seems the only real possibility to "compete" in a race is to define it as a group racing against each other.

[THE LONG RANGER]

With all due respect, you're missing a lot of the nuance and details of the race, exemplified by your results on the wiki you've started and the more the wiki is changing (I'm looking at this, now -> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tour_Divide_Bicycle_Race&oldid=486822224), the more those fine details that make this thing great are removed.

A big, big, big problem is that there's no mention of the basic idea of the race being a time trial and this is reflected in your results  - you don't even mention Jay P's time for 2011 - it's the historical course record!? Think about, this won't work:

For TDR 2012, how do people feel about simplified rules.

    Start's on June 8th
    Everyone uses the same route and same detours
    One listing of results for the 2012 "race"

"Start's on June 8th" - well, unless it doesn't for someone. Then, it's called an ITT, which differs only in the start time - every rider is riding a time trial. The 8th of June start this year is merely a suggestion.

"Everyone uses the same route and same detours" - which isn't possible, since detours aren't always known at the start of the race and can be different, depending on when a rider hits an area. In a perfect world I think we'd all love this, we're not on a 133 meter track taking a left turn for 20 days.

"One listing of results for the 2012 "race"" - why invalidate NoBo? And also, you're not seeing what the results are about - the current TD website talks about how we give props to everyone that's started, no matter if they finish or if they're relegated. It takes quite a bit of chutzpah to even line up.

These types of philosophical underpinnings are what makes the race interesting.

[elobeck]

The "tour divide" is separate from ITT's. Jay has set a new record as an ITT (counts towards record times for the route), but did not win the tour divide because he did not engage in the mass start. Kurt won the Tour divide, but his time does not count towards the overall route record as it was not the original course, heavily modified due to snow.

[THE LONG RANGER]

(I would also perhaps suggest doing the TD in how its currently set up, and then making suggestions on how to better it)

[febikes]

I would suggest that a different wiki page be created for the ITT results.  A different wiki page can also be created for the north bound race because it sure seems that northbound is a different race.

As per wiki standards what I am trying to do is simply document "exisiting" information.  Anyone can edit the wiki and site their sources.  Right now the only sensible "race" results that exist for 2011 are the ones from http://trackleaders.com/tourdivide.

By all means it would be great if someone with interest in the ITT would create a page for the ITT results on the web or in wiki or update the existing tourdivide.org site.