TourDivide wiki page?

[THE LONG RANGER]

The "tour divide" is separate from ITT's. Jay has set a new record as an ITT (counts towards record times for the route), but did not win the tour divide because he did not engage in the mass start.

Well, here's the rules -> http://tourdivide.org/the_rules

And it says,

Any determined cyclist may challenge the GDMBR at any time, in either direction to qualify for the Tour Divide (TD) General Classification (GC).

So, Jay did win 2011's Tour Divide General Classification. If Kurt was able to race faster than Jay and not use the detours, he would have won the Tour Divide General Classification.

I think there is a misnomer that there's a different race being held for the Grand Départ, and then a different race for ITT - that's not correct, as far as I can tell.

[DenisVTT]

Feel free to update the wiki page and/or create another wiki page for the northbound race.  My view is that this is a different event. 

Well then I definitely think you are redefining all on your own what the event is.

Here is Rule #1, as listed in the Tour Divide Rules that everybody followed last year:

1. Any determined cyclist may challenge the GDMBR at any time, in either direction to qualify for the Tour Divide (TD) General Classification (GC).

It would be a question in my mind whether the NoBo and ITT results should be listed separately or if it should all be one list (starters were listed separately, so I would also lean that way for the results). But there's no question whatsoever that if there is to be a result list, everyone who lined up should be listed. We all were in the same event.

[febikes]

I updated the wiki to reference the sources for the race results.  The idea with wiki is that it should simply document existing human knowledge and not create knowledge so citing sources is an important part of how wiki works.

In any case I don't see any way to list results for northbound and southbound on the same wiki section.  Feel free to edit the wiki page to define northbound results. 

In terms of results the only sources I can find that make sense are trackleaders.org and the 2008-2010 results on tourdivide.org.  I have cited these as sources for the wiki page.

In my mind, the northbound and efforts that start on different dates seem to me to be different races.  These efforts are clearly ITTs but may not be part of the 2011 southbound race as defined by trackleaders.   

-Mark

[DenisVTT]

Right now the only sensible "race" results that exist for 2011 are the ones from http://trackleaders.com/tourdivide.

Trackleaders tracked the SoBo, NoBo and ITT racers last year. For technical reasons, only the SoBo riders were listed in the LeaderBoard. But that doesn't mean the rest of us weren't in the race.

TheArtist's spreadsheet isn't perfect, nor is a GoogleDoc document as "official-looking" as a wiki page. But right now, it's certainly far more accurate and reflective of what the event was/is.

[febikes]

Anyone can edit the wiki and I think it works better then google docs.

Feel free to update it.  Please cite your sources as per wiki FAQ.  I created a stub section for the northbound race.  It seems the northbound racers were racing in a different race so it seems the results should be listed in a different section.

[Done]

This is going to get sticky really quickly. Perhaps it already has?

The elephant in the room is Matthew Lee's whereabouts. It's tough for people to know how to proceed without knowing what he's up to. After putting so much effort into the TD (website, multiple seasonal updates, starring in a movie, etc.), it's weird that he just vanished. It's natural for people to respectfully not demand an explanation from him. Further, not many people would feel good about "taking over" without his blessing. So, some direction from Matthew would be really helpful--otherwise people are going to clash over different ideas of how to proceed, which is a bummer...

[elobeck]

It is confusing, in a "normal year" where the GD is the "full route", then yes, an ITT of the course is on equal footing. We all know that last year the GD followed a route developed solely for the purpose of allowing the GD "tour Divide" to happen. I don't think anyone will argue that Kurt did not come in first for that 2011 edition. It became its own animal because of the reroutes. It could be logical to conclude that for this reason no results can be "officially" included in the GD/ITT rankings. Jay was probably the only one with a clean "full pull" on the "real course", such that he is the new record holder. I think this makes sense, no?

Again, all conditions being "normal" The Artist's referral to TD rules regarding GD/ITT congruency is appropriate

[flyingheel]

I agree with many that Matt needs to be involved in this.  He has arguably done more for the evolution of the Tour Divide than anyone even those from before the split between the two "routes" or events.  Talking to him is probably the first big step instead of everyone wondering what he thinks or where the event/route is headed or personal opinions.  I also think that having two many "official" sites can be counterproductive if the information is not consistent and has the potential for conflicts between overseeing groups or individuals regarding records, routes, dates, etc.  It would seem that febikes, who lives within 30 minutes of Matt could very easily speak to him him directly about this.  I see Matt riding both road and mountain bikes extremely often in the area, enough so that I wouldn't say he is missing from this area or necessarily hard to find.  He is well connected and often even someone who doesn't know him well, they ride with someone who does.

[jhl99]

I  like febikes approach, he identified a perceived problem and has offered up a solution.   

For an event that is all about self reliance and personal integrity, isn’t the reliance on Mr. Lee somewhat counter to the spirit of the event?

[krefs]

For an event that is all about self reliance and personal integrity, isn’t the reliance on Mr. Lee somewhat counter to the spirit of the event?

To those suggesting that an event of this magnitude could survive on its own without someone at the helm:

- Who will make decisions on the TD route as the GDMBR evolves?

- Who will work with route locals to get out and scout conditions on the course, scout potential detours, etc.?

- Who will make modifications to the route as conditions require detours either before or during the event? Mid-event detours were required each of the past two years due to both flooding and USFS district closures.

- Who will make decisions on results and relegations? I know that Matthew was quite frustrated trying to deal with results after the 2011 race because of so many instances and reports of riders breaking the rules...missed/skipped sections of the course, drafting, something involving a vehicle...

- Who will make decisions on what the rules should be? If you don't understand the challenges of this, take some time to peruse (not skim...peruse!) the discussions of self-supported ultra race rules that have taken place on this forum over the past few years. No one sees eye to eye on this. No one. How would any editing of these rules on the Wiki by those who don't agree be prevented?

These are not decisions that can be made by a community effort. It's impossible to reach any sort of consensus in this setting, especially mid-race when unexpected situations arise and require a quick response. Successful grassroots organizations require some sort of leadership, whether it's one or a few individuals. TD currently has a handful of individuals (TD alumni) that act as a steering committee of sorts (and for the record, I am not at all involved in this committee). When the race date gets nearer, they'll post any necessary rule or route changes, as they have for the past few years. It's worked out fine in past years, and no one that's raced the TD has really had any problems with this, as far as I'm aware.

Give the race a go. I think you'll see how your concerns pale in comparison to the experience and simplicity of the adventure. Then if you still have problems, give Matthew a call and have a discussion about it.

[DocTrike]

@The Artist, thx for 2011 results I had not found that yet!

@everyone
My perception of the Tour Divide race is that is an underground race that anyone can do anytime in the given year from either south or north starts period. There is the GD (grand depart) which allows riders a more competitive approach to the race where conditions should be similar from year to year "hopefully" but still the same race. This is a gentleman's bet, an underground competition, the nature of that limits the organization and rules. If you want more go do Leadville, or Stagecoach.

I heard from Scott (GDR) within one day of my message to the website. I heard from Matt and exchanged messages with him after my second message to the TDR website. The first message they dismissed as not a serious inquiry (willing to overlook this).

I have been following the race since 2005 when first hearing about through a friend who is an Adventure Cycling member. Knowing how I ride and what I ride, he thought it would be fun for me. I use to ride around 100 miles every night solo for fun. Most of my riding was on unimproved roads and rail beds, and around the urban area using back streets and bikeways. I had no problems finding information on the ride and about the race rules and organization. I have found more and more helpful info on the TDR website each time I look at it. The only issue I have had is since the route seems to be changing/evolving due to conditions I had a hard time determining actual physical conditions of certain trail sections for my bike choice.

You must remember that Matt has a personal life as well as a MTB racing career and due to the success of the movie he has the opportunity to partake in some new adventures. He will chime in when he feels it necessary I am sure. If in doubt show up at your determined star point and date and race. Or do the GD in Banff in June, make sure you post your LOI as well.

I have messaged a few past racers from there blogs and websites and I have received messages from others I did not contact which leads me to believe the past finishers do watch this board and talk to each other. All have been very helpful and willing to share there experiences of the route. I will also say that ACA has been very patient with my never ending quest for detailed route access info due to my bike choice and they seem to be very willing to help racers compile the information they need.

The only thing I would change and after thinking about it may not be possible is a way to categorize the race posts by race year on this board.

[febikes]

Events can't depend on one person for long term success.  Hopefully we will see something from tourdivide.org or Matt but really it would be best if an organization of some sort ran the "race" event with clear rules and clear process.

For this year I plan to do the trackleaders.com version of the tourdivide.org race following all rules on the tourdivide.org website.

Personally I think the ITT is much different from the race.  I have about zero interest in the ITT or the "record" because conditions change from day to day.  The idea of a record seems silly but a race where people start on the same day makes sense to me.

I am fairly slow so I expect to do poorly in the race but I would like to someday know that I finished 15th, 16th, or 12th or 30th.  The idea of finish order makes much more sense to me then the idea of some silly time because I figure you can compare to people who started with you while a clock is just a machine.

Personally the SNAFU of the 2011 race results seems to be in part because things are too complex.  I agree with Kurt that some organization or individual needs to decide things rather then a community.  For the wiki page I cited my source as trackleaders.com because they have the only defined and published version of 2011 results.

My advice to the 2012 race would be to define it based on the "Grand Depart" start date and require SPOT tracking on trackleaders.com for the "race" version of the Tour Divide.  With SPOT tracking rules are simple.  I would also suggest dropping the rule against drafting other riders because once you have more then four or five people in a pack it is fairly hard not to draft a little. 

For 2012 my view is that the trackleaders.com event with spots is the "race".  Other efforts for 2012 seem cool as ITT attempts but for racing it seems trackleaders.com has the best "game".  I will be riding a red single speed.

I hope to see many of you guys on June 8th for the start.

[THE LONG RANGER]

But dude, it's still weird -

I want you to race your own race and have fun, a life changing experience, slay some dragons - no matter what you decide to do. That's totally cool and no one should get in your way. Use whatever rules you wanna and have you personal goals that matter to you first and foremost on your epic journey. I'm sure you're going to totally kick ass. For real!

But to start a page on wikipedia that follows your personal view of how the races should run... that's a little strange. Proposing is one thing - great, problems should be talked about, but you're revising the past results, giving your personal view, focus on the data that matters to you - that's not taking an objective point of view. 

When I started putting together the 2011 results, I made sure to state that: they're unofficial, community made, and need to be confirmed by the racers and by TD. The latter two points may never happen fully, but at least we got a bird's eye view of what's happening. In a way, I think that's really kinda cool and beautiful - it's a mystery! What we do is sort of secret!

If I may make a suggestion, perhaps move the wikipedia page to  a private, author page for the time being, before making it live . Or maybe even host it on a separate wiki, and not wikipedia. Telling people to revise data you've monkeypatched from the Tour Divide website and trackleaders isn't, I feel, the best practice for an editor. Perhaps the full results don't even need to be on the wiki page - top 3 per year? Nobo, Sobo, notes on various bike setups, gender/sexual identities? Maybe a little more about the route, the culture, a link to the bikepacking wiki page, etc. - just some ideas. Some of the greatest stories from TD are from people who were relegated during the race, or have never finished. Lobeck's epic bike fails in 2010, or Fixie Dave's Chasing Windmills for years on end - that's just richness you won't get from a simplified list of results.

 I'm not touching this, since I'm part of the great narrative that is the TD, even in a tiny way - that's against the rules of wikipedia, yes? I'd love to make the page right now sparkle, but something really stops me from doing so.

Or, perhaps, as (just) another suggestion, just take it down, out of respect of the current folks in charge, for all the grey legal problems underground races have to contend with, for the fact that the TD isn't really a race like you may be familiar with - it's more about some crazies in the mountains seeing what they can do, all for little more than a ruckus good time and perhaps some bragging rights at the ol' watering hole  

[Curt_R]

Well said !

[febikes]

But dude, it's still weird -

I want you to race your own race and have fun, a life changing experience, slay some dragons - no matter what you decide to do. That's totally cool and no one should get in your way. Use whatever rules you wanna and have you personal goals that matter to you first and foremost on your epic journey. I'm sure you're going to totally kick ass. For real!

I am looking forward to the ride.  I want to use what ever are the official rules and do it as a "race" in the spirit of fun competition.

But to start a page on wikipedia that follows your personal view of how the races should run... that's a little strange. Proposing is one thing - great, problems should be talked about, but you're revising the past results, giving your personal view, focus on the data that matters to you - that's not taking an objective point of view.  

The page on wiki is not "my view".  As per wiki I cite my sources and simply publish the results that were decided by others.  I picked the trackleaders.com version of the 2011 race results because on the web it seem to be the only source that exists in a format that makes sense and can be referenced.

When I started putting together the 2011 results, I made sure to state that: they're unofficial, community made, and need to be confirmed by the racers and by TD. The latter two points may never happen fully, but at least we got a bird's eye view of what's happening. In a way, I think that's really kinda cool and beautiful - it's a mystery! What we do is sort of secret!

The spreadsheet is great but I am not sure how to compile it into any official results so for wiki I simply referenced the trackleaders.com version of the results.  The spreadsheet includes both race results and results for ITT efforts.  The page on wiki is race results only and as such I referenced the track leaders version of the official results.

If I may make a suggestion, perhaps move the wikipedia page to  a private, author page for the time being, before making it live . Or maybe even host it on a separate wiki, and not wikipedia. Telling people to revise data you've monkeypatched from the Tour Divide website and trackleaders isn't, I feel, the best practice for an editor.

Wiki is about factual information based on cited sources.  I think publishing the Tour Divide results with referenced sources is a proper use of wiki and gives the event some historical record.  Leaving it to private websites that are not updated or private blogs seems like it is risky because history get's lost.  We will see what happens on tourdivide.org for 2011 and 2012 results.  Hopefully something will happen and when it does the wiki can cite that as a source and include their version of the official results.

Perhaps the full results don't even need to be on the wiki page - top 3 per year? Nobo, Sobo, notes on various bike setups, gender/sexual identities?

I like the idea of the full results in some public place because I doubt I will be in the top three in any race event.

Maybe a little more about the route, the culture, a link to the bikepacking wiki page, etc. - just some ideas.

It would be great to have that on wiki (with cited sources).  Right now I only put the results out on wiki because the the rules, culture, and route are a little confusing right now to me.  I am still researching these and if they go on wiki it will need to be with cited sources because the last thing I want is to make it "my" view of things.

Some of the greatest stories from TD are from people who were relegated during the race, or have never finished. Lobeck's epic bike fails in 2010, or Fixie Dave's Chasing Windmills for years on end - that's just richness you won't get from a simplified list of results.

Yes but that sort of stuff is harder to cite sources for and harder to compile into a historical record.  My thinking is that twenty years from now someone may want to see the results and wiki will exist while trackleaders.com, tourdivide.org may not exist for twenty years.

I'm not touching this, since I'm part of the great narrative that is the TD, even in a tiny way - that's against the rules of wikipedia, yes? I'd love to make the page right now sparkle, but something really stops me from doing so.

Provided people cite sources and use wiki as an objective resource I think it would be good.  People should not use it for conflict or creation of information.  

Or, perhaps, as (just) another suggestion, just take it down, out of respect of the current folks in charge, for all the grey legal problems underground races have to contend with, for the fact that the TD isn't really a race like you may be familiar with - it's more about some crazies in the mountains seeing what they can do, all for little more than a ruckus good time and perhaps some bragging rights at the ol' watering hole  

The wiki is just an echo of information available on other cites so I don't see how it creates any harm.

[THE LONG RANGER]

I sense you're missing the big picture I'm trying to paint, so I'll stop I respect your views and I don't want this to get out of hand. I'm guessing your building the bike you're racing? That's pretty f'n rad.

Bonne chance, tout le monde! Courage!

[phil_rad]

Sorry if I step on anybody's toes but..... LEAVE THE TDR THE WAY IT IS!!  One website is enough. Be patient, ML will update the site. We have what? 8 weeks to the Grand Depart, so direct your energies to preparation of the TDR. :-)

Phil

[Marshal]

Allow drafting?? Hah ha ha ha
Oh I see now it's a team event

Seems like OP needs to do some background study

[DocTrike]

Hey if they allow drafting I am having my riding partner tour his sociable tandem trike velomobiel with electric assist the same time as the race. I will just follow along behind him for 2764 miles.

[Georg66]

LEAVE THE TDR THE WAY IT IS!!  One website is enough. Be patient, ML will update the site. We have what? 8 weeks to the Grand Depart, so direct your energies to preparation of the TDR
Phil

nothing to add ...