TourDivide wiki page?

[febikes]

Sorry if I step on anybody's toes but..... LEAVE THE TDR THE WAY IT IS!!  One website is enough. Be patient, ML will update the site. We have what? 8 weeks to the Grand Depart, so direct your energies to preparation of the TDR. :-)

Phil

There are already three websites that list results from The Great Divide / TDR.  The tourdivide.org website lists some results for 2008, 2009, and 2010.  The GreatDivideRace.com lists results for 1999, 2004-2010.  The trackleaders.com website lists results for 2011.

With the wiki I have not listed any new results.  The wiki simply archives the results from the above mentioned websites.  Sources are cited and as such the wiki is simply an consolidated place for people to view the results that already exist. 

When/if tourdivide.org and/or greatdividerace.com get around to listing the 2011 results the wiki can be updated to include those views of the results as well provided sources are cited.

I feel bad that this has caused some conflict but really there is nothing on the wiki that is not already available externally.  The wiki system also lists results for the Tour de France and other events with sources cited.  The wiki is simply another channel for people who want to learn about the event.

[DenisVTT]

The wiki is simply another channel for people who want to learn about the event.

The problem is that what the wiki does currently is give your skewed view of what the event was and still is.

- There was a NoBo Grand Depart. Racing NoBo is allowed, legal, and part of the TD event. Paul Attalla won that part of the race and finished 3rd overall. That he wouldn't even be mentioned makes a mockery of the results.
- There were people riding ITTs. ITTs are allowed. In fact, the Grand Depart in the mind of many is no more than a grouped start of ITTs. Jay Petervary rode an ITT last year, and beat the all-time record. That he wouldn't even be mentioned makes a mockery of the results.
- While Trackleaders can be a source of information, it is not that much of a reliable one. For one thing, Spot devices are optional. Some people rode without one, including the guy that finished 5th northbound. For another, if you don't turn off your Spot device immediately after reaching the finish line, you may end up with additional time.
- Trackleaders tracked NoBo and ITT riders last year. The info is there. IINM, that's where Justin got the info for his spreadsheet. You chose to take only what shows in the front page, which is only part of the story.
- As far as I know, TrackLeaders doesn't claim to list official results. You do, based on theirs. As far as I know, that is not proper wiki practice.

Simply put, unlike what you are saying, the results as listed on your page are not a historical record, a reference, a complete listing of results, or even a correct listing of the results. If you want to follow wiki rules, they basically don't belong there. You claim they do, but they don't.

I was at first open to the idea, provided some community consensus, but also provided that the results as listed would reflect the way the event was and is run. As is, your wiki page doesn't do that at all, and I'm in favor of taking it down.

[elobeck]

The problem is that what the wiki does currently is give your skewed view of what the event was and still is.

- There was a NoBo Grand Depart. Racing NoBo is allowed, legal, and part of the TD event. Paul Attalla won that part of the race and finished 3rd overall. That he wouldn't even be mentioned makes a mockery of the results.
- There were people riding ITTs. ITTs are allowed. In fact, the Grand Depart in the mind of many is no more than a grouped start of ITTs. Jay Petervary rode an ITT last year, and beat the all-time record. That he wouldn't even be mentioned makes a mockery of the results.
- While Trackleaders can be a source of information, it is not that much of a reliable one. For one thing, Spot devices are optional. Some people rode without one, including the guy that finished 5th northbound. For another, if you don't turn off your Spot device immediately after reaching the finish line, you may end up with additional time.
- Trackleaders tracked NoBo and ITT riders last year. The info is there. IINM, that's where Justin got the info for his spreadsheet. You chose to take only what shows in the front page, which is only part of the story.
- As far as I know, TrackLeaders doesn't claim to list official results. You do, based on theirs. As far as I know, that is not proper wiki practice.

Simply put, unlike what you are saying, the results as listed on your page are not a historical record, a reference, a complete listing of results, or even a correct listing of the results. If you want to follow wiki rules, they basically don't belong there. You claim they do, but they don't.

I was at first open to the idea, provided some community consensus, but also provided that the results as listed would reflect the way the event was and is run. As is, your wiki page doesn't do that at all, and I'm in favor of taking it down.

Well said. Perhaps hold off on the  "Occupy Divide Racing" movement until after the event and you are still not happy?

[sluttyduck]

So your main issue is the fact that there are 3 different places with results?
The GDR is a separate race from the TDR. So that's a non-issue.
2011 results aren't up yet on the TD site...patience
Your Wikipedia article will probably be deleted.
Due to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability
And probably this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NCYCLING#Cycling
In the grand scheme of things; this is a small race. It has been covered in only a handful of magazines (mostly American), a few professional blogs, and several personal blogs. Wikipedia is not an appropriate place for the results; they're not quite encyclopedic.

I don’t mean to belittle anyone’s achievement(s)-my own included and many of my friends-Wikipedia is just not the right place for this info.
 
Your comment about ITT being not equal to the GD and allowing drafting is utter nonsense.
Grand Departs became popular when Curiak organized the first GDR. It was just an easier way to get folks together; and still maintain the SOLO aspects (hence the no drafting rule).
The only thing that could be said to differentiate the two would be weather and weather related events.
I’ve done both, the saddle sores and sunburn hurt just the same.
It is very easy not to draft (ride on the side), and a hell of a lot safer too.

It is unfortunate that ML has not been available to comment. My last correspondence with him was in early February; when he was busy with work, trackleaders, and of course his kids. Life happens. I'm sure he or someone will find the time to take care of the Spots and Spot sign ups in time for the June 8th start.

[woody]

I'm sure he or someone will find the time to take care of the Spots and Spot sign ups in time for the June 8th start.

I sent Trackleaders an email a week ago about linking my SPOT to their website for the race and I received an email saying,
 
"Just hang tight. There will be a form created in the next few weeks that will allow you to submit your Shared Page thru the right channel for TD racers"

Woody

[jhl99]

Slutty Duck:  Your second reference is under the heading for notable Sporting Professionals, I believe that is reference for an entry for the person, not an event.

Also, in listing the media exposure, the Ride The Divide movie was omitted:  http://www.ridethedividemovie.com/

RAAM apparently is notable event:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Across_America.  It sure seems that GDMR and RAAM are birds of a feather.

EDIT:  A little 100 mile mountain bike race in PA has a page and hasn't been deleted:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilderness_101
 

[Done]

Based on my painful experiences discussing rules on this site, I think that the whole Wikipedia-ization of the TD is doomed to failure. There are just too many different opinions and conflicting philosophies to make these types of events "open source." Given that the community can't agree on seemingly-simple things, I don't expect that amicable agreement can be reached on any of the dozens of other sensitive issues. For better or worse, benevolent dictators (with very thick skins!) seem to be the best approach.

[Boney]

Well said. Perhaps hold off on the  "Occupy Divide Racing" movement until after the event and you are still not happy?

Man, I hope Simoni is still following this thread! I'd buy an #OccupyTD shirt and it'd be a great way for him to support his bikepacking habit.

[febikes]

I am sorry the wiki page created so much angst on the forum.

In any case I deleted the page for now. 

Personally I am looking forward to the 2012 event and will revisit the topic after the event.

[mbeardsl]

As a complete outsider, but someone who has personally ridden with a few guys here (including the OP who is one of the nicest and fastest guys I know), it is interesting to see how stuff like this plays out on forums.  SO MUCH perceived intent in words on a screen   Has everyone also forgotten how PMs work so some of the finer points can be taken offline and all parties clued in to the subtext? 

There are "clearly" reasons nothing is being posted yet and those who will do so may have a few differnt motivations for the radio silence.  You could argue if those motivations are good or bad (and to whom), but it is what it is and having the leadership (or perceived lack thereof) in control IS a good thing or we'd get back to a couple guys going out to put down some fastest known times whenever they please.  Or maybe that's the point

In the end, I hope everyone does well and has a great adventure.  I will be watching Mark and Justin very intently, can't wait to watch those dots FLY!

[THE LONG RANGER]

- Trackleaders tracked NoBo and ITT riders last year. The info is there. IINM, that's where Justin got the info for his spreadsheet.

That's where I got most of the original info, but other people have been filling in - as Trackleaders aren't completely useful - there's missing info and a lot of the tracks are offline, which makes difficult the task of confirming the standings. In the spreadsheet, there's also a "Confirmed by Rider" col. (labels seem to have disappeared?) to fix any of those inaccuracies. There's a relegation col. to put any problems like that and i, "dija finish?" col. as well. It's a, "on your honor" type of deal (as is the race itself), which I think is important to note. I mentioned this in the other thread, but I there's NO WAY I'd  relegate someone (except myself - forward hitchhike! ), even in this spreadsheet, so they're all question marks, with as much information I culled  as much of the potential problem the person had on the route - that would be a job, as Kurt asserts, for a race organizer to discuss with the rider. Yadda yadda.

In the end, I hope everyone does well and has a great adventure.  I will be watching Mark and Justin very intently, can't wait to watch those dots FLY!

Oh, ho ho - this Justin? I haven't yet put my hat in the pile, in any way/shape/form. Speaking of shape/form: mine is excellent, but the rig is still in the box it was shipped in from Silver City! - was just able to pay my Gila Regional ER bill from the crash in July,  yesterday! I haven't ridden anything except a fixed gear CrossCheck since coming home, but damn if that doesn't make you a climbing machine.  Unless there's a stroke of insane fortune, the next Bikepacking race I'll be in would be the CTR.

Re: this thread, I first, have written WAY too much, but the race becomes a major event in your recent personal history, you wanna help curate it and give guidance to how you've seen the tribe working and by taking part, you get a greater sense as to why it works they way it does. ML is an incredibly gracious,  intelligent and thoughtful person, I have no doubt the people acting as benevolent dictators to this anarchist gathering and who's this baby belongs to will Do The Right Thing, it's a pity that the amount of work ML et al. did last year isn't reflected anywhere easily seen.

And absolutely! Go Mark! Hope you can get the miles in beforehand and tune in that sleep kit and really - I can't wait to see what your rig turns out to be. I hope what I've written only comes over as suggestion - like everyone else on this thread, I'm not a part of a steering committee or anything, but the TD is a very special thing - it requires deep respect.

[mbeardsl]

Oh, ho ho - this Justin? I haven't yet put my hat in the pile, in any way/shape/form. Speaking of shape/form: mine is excellent, but the rig is still in the box it was shipped in from Silver City! - was just able to pay my Gila Regional ER bill from the crash in July,  yesterday! I haven't ridden anything except a fixed gear CrossCheck since coming home, but damn if that doesn't make you a climbing machine.  Unless there's a stroke of insane fortune, the next Bikepacking race I'll be in would be the CTR.

Yeah, I couldn't tell from your blog this year if the hints here and there were going anywhere or not, but assumed you had it in your sights.  Some of those fixed gear rides are a bit wild BTW. Kudos to you sir!  Whatever the endeavor you find yourself doing next, best of luck, and if you do find yourself on the TD (fixed gear or otherwise), I'm sure it'll be as funny/riveting/inspirational as last year, although I hope with a better ending.

As for Mark - he is ready and getting better every time I see him (I get dropped on climbs like I were standing still).  He has progressed VERY quickly in the last couple months from bonking on 5 hr rides to crushing the competition at local races and doing multiple 100+ mile days like he's been doing it for years (hope he doesnt mind the props).  Very fun to see someone pick apart weaknesses, overcome them, and make leaps and bounds towards such a big goal.  It will certainly be fun to have someone super local to cheer for now that ML doesn't seem to be racing.

He makes a nice bike to boot and riding his own rig will be pretty cool!

[Pete castelli]

 I agree that everyone should ride the ride they want, route or webpage aside, organized tracking or not. It's about the ride. I'm leaving from Roosville June 15th hoping to make it to Antelope Wells. Riding the Great Divide route minus Banff leg due to time constraints. I have one friend agreeing to do the first two weeks with me,Using adventure cycling route maps, I hope to do in between race-tour pace 75-100 miles per day. hit me up if you plan to start in Roosville. I'm not sure how many, or if anyone else will be there!

Pete Castelli

[KootenayB]

The initial appeal of the GDMBR and the GDR and the TD was the grassroots element, the adventure, the personal challenge.  Others have said so in elegant terms, but I have to add that all this talk of times, things "official", records just taints it for me, personally.

I've had lots of time to think about these things, and can say I can't see any good reason (except for maybe pros or aspiring pros - $$$) to compete against others in any activity that they enjoy.  At all - but it seems especially short sighted in ultra events.  Period.  Such a focus lessens the experience that you can get by just doing what feels right - not pushing for a time that will be "better" than some other number on a piece of paper or website somewhere.  Competing against others seems to spawn from our western upbringing to be "the best" - meaning faster, richer, or some other kind of easily measured (and by necessity, shallow) parameter.  I know that I am at my "best" when I don't compete against others, just do what makes me happy, push my personal boundaries (slower or faster than some perceived "important" measure of "goodness" or self-worth), support all those around me, smile, and let a wonderful life be what it is and will be.  And, paradoxically, this attitude usually results in a faster time, but much more importantly a much better time (life experience) personally.

You either get this, can get it, or won't ever get it - but I won't defend it if you don't agree.  Have fun out there!

[sthig]

this is great! thank you

[Climb On]

Just a few observations after reading this strand. It seems to have devolved into veterans versus new racers. I can completely understand why someone who sacrificed the time, money, and energy to race the Tour Divide would want to see her or his time posted somewhere (ideally on the 'official website for the TDR'). Additionally, a new racer would reasonably want a reply to the websites email or being able to see one's name on a start list to confirm that the race is on and he or she is included. Reading through this and other posts, I've observed a disturbing trend. Some people get info (e.g. 'ML emailed me the other day' or 'I received an email shortly after submitting my LOI', etc.) while others don't. I realize that for veterans of the TDR, confirmations and updated information may be unnecessary, but those veterans did not have to face this situation if they rode the race for the first time whilst Matthew Lee was still competing in it, updating the website, and making the decisions about reroutes and other race issues. The point I'm making is that this is a huge commitment in planning, training, cash, and scheduling for anyone to take on, and this commitment is even more daunting when one is a TDR virgin. I am somewhat taken aback by the vitriol being hurled just because someone took on the task of filling the void of race coordination and website updating. After the 'Ride the Divide' film tour, I thought that the race creators were trying to promote this event, not promote in the sense of make money or gather sponsors, but rather promote as in share this badass adventure with others who have a taste for such. Reading through this strand gives me the impression that the TDR is more of a members only kind of race. I know that is not what the website says and I doubt that it is the intention of TDR veterans. I think the opposite is true; that TD racers enjoy sharing knowledge, tips, strategies, and the experience itself. I've been impressed by the lack of exclusivity on other strands related to the TDR, but this one was a disappointing read.   

[THE LONG RANGER]

Yeah, we all kind of sound like wankers, eventually in this thread -  although I can really only speak for myself. Other than the points krefs brings up about how it is crucial to have organizers for this race for some pretty important and practical things, everyone else familiar with the race can help in a loosely-organized, anarchistic kind of way. If you're doing the GD up North, be prepared to start on June 8th and don't let your nerves get the best of you! Point 'er South and keep on going until you get to the border!

[jhl99]

Climb On:  Well Put.

On thing the organizers could do to lesson the effort is to ditch the strict adherence to the ACA route and replace it with some number of mandatory waypoints one must ride to.    Space them accordingly to allow for multiple routes around areas of potential fire/snow closures.  The waypoint method eliminates or reduces the issues of going off route and needing to come up with last minute detours.  This would also potentially reward racers with superior route finding/planning skills or just better luck.

[Marshal]

humm, take stick and stir....


I really feel for all the 2011 racers.  Even today some may not fully understand that with one exception—JP’s result, by definition there can not be any other 2011 “TDR/route” results.
[And with all the various detours taken in 2011 it is very difficult  (not impossible by any means- but difficult) to contemplate a fair-reasonable “group start result”]

Quote from TDR web site, route page:
"Tour Divide challenges a fixed course annually called the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route. Not only is the Great Divide Route a true classic, it is pursued with consistency by TD athletes so that year to year, finish times may always be compared directly to the record books."

Along a different line I thought might toss in a little story for all those who want to change what is.
 Once up one a time ML argued persistently with MC to change the GDR to include the Canada section of the GD route.  MC would not budge and eventually told ML, in no uncertain terms, go do your own thing.  hence the current TDR format
Both MC and ML had some good strong arguments for doing things the way THEY wanted them done.  

Who knows, maybe YOU have some really great ideas for a multi-day unsupported race, and guess what--no one is stopping anyone from doing a version of a TDR type event their own particular way, with their own set of rules or lack there of.  

IE: If you really think you have something to offer then prove it by stepping up to the plate and doing it, just like ML did.

Marshal

[mcmurv]

Guys, please, if you want to ride with the GD on 8 June, then show up. 

If you don't, decide on a start time and ride.

As others have said, just ride.