Using cell phones in ultra racing

[febikes]

Trying out this poll to see what the rest of you think about using cell phones.

[febikes]

I will make the case for unlimited use of cell phones simply because while it surely is "outside help" it rewards the people who have friends and the cost is simply the price of cell phone minutes.  This is not really the same thing as having a huge camper van with a team of people helping you with all the supplies.  

Having unlimited use of a cell phone simply lets you talk to others and makes much more sense the a complex code of taboo subjects.  Basically once you start talking to your friends you are going to discuss the race because that is human nature.  If you are a monk and a saint you might be able to draw the line but it would be very hard.

I also enjoyed it when my friends would call or text me and let me know that they were excited that I had gained X miles on person Y.  They also let me know where others were and we chatted about where people seemed to be putting down their bivy. 

At the same time I draw a hard line for other stuff.  Trail magic can be a big danger.  On the road to Lima, I was out of food for the last 80 miles.  Before heading into the wasteland to cross the continental divide I had the option to knock on doors and beg for food but in my mind that would be a complete lack of honor and would be cheating because we can't allow the event to turn into scrubby dudes in lycra who beg for stuff from the locals.  To me the lack of food was a rewarding time where I had the chance to HTFU.

It seems phone magic might be a moral gray area but I don't see any reason why it gives me a tangible material advantage over others.  Sure if the other guy has no friends to talk too then I may have a psychological advantage but on the other hand he may be a tough SOB that does not need friends.

Also some people can talk to their gods while I don't have any.

[Done]

Also some people can talk to their gods while I don't have any.

That's the best thing that I've read on the subject yet!

[Bill in Houston]

Yeah, but at some point, talking to friends on the phone turns into people with support crews of preriders who scout each section ahead of time.  And then once that is okay, maybe they even do minor trail repairs and in very extreme cases accidentally drop bags of food.  Or who go into town to a bike shop and purchase parts and leave them at the shop for pickup, and then send gps coordinates and directions to the rider.  Just thinking out loud.

If it is for an actual race with a winner and prizes and such, then you will need a list of cell phone rules 3 pages long.  If it's just for the joy of accomplishment and a job well done, then people will make up their own rules and there will be lots of bickering about who did it the fastest with the least talking on the phone.  It's just how people are.  I haven't seen it here, but I saw it all over the Appalachian Trail hiking boards I used to visit.  Who knew there could be so many rules for something that is just supposed to be for your own enjoyment and fulfillment?

[febikes]

Yeah, but at some point, talking to friends on the phone turns into people with support crews of preriders who scout each section ahead of time.  And then once that is okay, maybe they even do minor trail repairs and in very extreme cases accidentally drop bags of food.  Or who go into town to a bike shop and purchase parts and leave them at the shop for pickup, and then send gps coordinates and directions to the rider.  Just thinking out loud.

The place to draw the line is material help.  Imagine a simple flip phone with no web browser and talking with friends.  With the simple flip phone and a few friends you can check the weather for the next couple of days and research things by asking your friend to use the interwebs on your behalf.  The "dumb" flip phone can be a tool to do informational research.  A few friends who are willing to talk to you is just one path for getting to the information.

If you don't have any friends you still have the same access to information.  You can buy an IPhone or similar device with a built in web browser.  Basically your iphone and it's weather, location, informational, and location related apps can serve as a simulated informational friend.  You can even talk to Siri for some of it.

Talking to friends can also give you moral support.  If you really don't have any friends you can also invent a God that will serve the same purpose.  Plenty of kids and adults invent gods and other imaginary friends all the time for this sort of thing.

In the end provided it is just informational I don't see how talking to people can give anyone an unfair advantage.  The key is that provided there is no outside material support you are really doing it on your own.  Regardless of how you get the information you still have to do the ride on your own.

[Bill in Houston]

3 pages of definitions for material support, then. 

It sure would be nice to have friends who look up all that stuff for me and then call me or text me back, rather than trying to mess with some glitchy mobile OS.  If I could keep riding or sleep for 20 minutes rather than messing with an iPhone, that would be great.  I wonder if that would be "material support"?

[febikes]

It sure would be nice to have friends who look up all that stuff for me and then call me or text me back, rather than trying to mess with some glitchy mobile OS.  If I could keep riding or sleep for 20 minutes rather than messing with an iPhone, that would be great.  I wonder if that would be "material support"?

You might have a really good device with a great mobile OS.  My friend might be very dumb, grumpy, etc.

Really the only race related stuff I discussed was location of riders (i.e. blue dot app) and the weather forecast (lots of apps).  For key information like this the mobile OS devices are likely faster, easier to maintain, and less "glitchy" then a network of friends.   

[trebor]

Support or not, I really-really think the emotional end is real - though difficult to quantify.

I received an unsolicited text from a friend a few years ago at TNGA. I got the text while my phone was on and I was looking for the closest food source. "So-n-So [name withheld] is only 10 miles behind you!" I was at a really low energy point and out of food and nearly out of water. I knew that down off the pass about a mile was a store. I decided against the store even though I was low on supplies and climbed that next peak. I was sending post cards from deep inside the borders of Bonktown but "found" the energy to get my arse moving.

Nothing about my physical condition changed, nor did I magically get any more food and water. But energy came from somewhere. Emotional change? Fear of losing a spot on the overall? Whatever it was I think it got me going.

I can't say if that's cheating or not. But... I love to hear my wife's voice after being gone for days....

[Bill in Houston]

sounds like material support then.    if i did a ride like that, i would definitely want to have my phone.  texts and a little talking would really brighten my day. 

[THE LONG RANGER]

I'm a electronic curmudgeon, most especially since anything electronic on my bike, breaks - including my cell phone on the TD, but also being a subscriber to the ascetic-style, I'd say, "nay" on cellphone use. It takes you out of the race and adds more insulation. I say: have an adventure.

Keep it for emergencies. Keep it to make legal reservations, like shuttling, motels, etc (if the rules permit). For UL races, having a $1000+ mini wonder computer in your pocket (that also makes calls) is not UL, anyways. You can go without. My suggestion is getting a ghetto drug dealer-type phone on a pay-as-you-go plan, or used phone from 5+ years ago you can just switch in your SIM card for.

Those types of phones power on forever and make great alarms.

If you ask me if you should bring along a music player, I'm gonna say no to that. Again: insulation. Listening is a great thing to be able to do, while on-trail/track/road. Emotionality, I find it better to keep myself grounded with my immediate surroundings, rather than deep in a song.

These types of gizmos have an awful annoyance of taking up time, too.

[chrisx]

Limiting use of electronic gear puts honest people at a disadvantage.


How about more checks to see if a person actually pedaled the entire course?

[THE LONG RANGER]

Limiting use of electronic gear puts honest people at a disadvantage.

I'd be interested in hearing your argument on that.

I'd get Beardog all up on my ass if I'd have a race completely banning cell phones ala the GDR, but as a personal rule, I'd go without needing it - the same way there's Matt's TD challenge of one motel per race. Being disconnected for so long is hard to do in this weird world of ours, but it's also returns well on investment. Same with an iPod or something. Want to use it? Good. But, you're missing out. Lep Zepplin will be waiting on your return.

[febikes]

Limiting use of electronic gear puts honest people at a disadvantage.

Honest people are always at a disadvantage.

How about more checks to see if a person actually pedaled the entire course?

It's about code of honor rather then checks.  The only real check is the self (back to honest people...)

A cell phone with friends and race info seem to me a style point.  TheArtist mentioned music player and really in many ways I see a phone and friends as one a similar thing.  Some people get motivation from friends others get motivation from music.  Some people talk to their gods while others talk to friends or enjoy the power of the self.  It seems more style and not an advantage regardless of what you talk about.

Greg Lemond made a point to ensure his coaches would not give him any time splits or time checks when he raced the final time trial at the Tour De France.  In his mind any information would work against his psychology because he wanted to go as hard as possible regardless of time gap.  He won by eight seconds.  Other people like having more information so as with other artifacts of the mind information does not provide a material advantage it is just a personal style.

[seabrin]

I hate to be the nit picker but you did not include the my choice on your poll. Simply put, no talk of the race outside my experience and effort. Calls can only be made when in towns.

[febikes]

I hate to be the nit picker but you did not include the my choice on your poll. Simply put, no talk of the race outside my experience and effort. Calls can only be made when in towns.

Poll updated.

[wookieone]

I have to say no to phones, (but I don't have a phone at all) and think racing should be about humans and their efforts not tech and all it's little temptations...starts to get blurry. Leave the modern world behind and test your mettle! Jefe

[Flounder]

I'm new to ultra-racing, but have been bikepacking for a decade. In other words pre-cell phone era. I'll just say this. I could make a call a day while out on a race course and not contact anyone who really knows enough, or cares enough, to provide me with any unfair tidbits of information to give me any advantage. If I talk to someone, they just want to know I'm okay, etc.

Secondly, my life has become a hectic beast. If not for the ability to check in, I simply wouldn't be able to unplug from my daily obligations to even race in the first place. So, in an average week, I may have to make half a dozen calls. I wish, oh how I wish, my life were trivial enough that air time could only be dedicated to locating my next rest stop Twinkie.


Actually, now that I think about it, this is pretty silly. Cell phones are available to everyone, same as suspension forks, sil-nylon tarps, and any other techno-widget. If you're going to ban cell phones, ban GPS. If you're going to ban GPS, ban these computers we're using to exchange race beta here on this forum. Ban the forum? Maybe I should just go back to road racing where UCI has prepared HUNDREDS of silly regulations for me to follow.

Gotta say, as someone who has raced every cycling discipline from team pursuit on the 'drome to endurance mtb racing, this discussion is a buzz kill.

[febikes]

I have to say no to phones, (but I don't have a phone at all) and think racing should be about humans and their efforts not tech and all it's little temptations...starts to get blurry. Leave the modern world behind and test your mettle! Jefe

But do you feel like people with phones somehow have an unfair advantage on you?  Do you think others using phones interferes with your event?

I am against the idea of RV support vehicles is because it is both unfair and even if we all used big RVs with crews it would ruin the journey into nature.  Support crews and equipment drops give the recipient an advantage and also create a negative experience for others because of the increased impact on the event.

Do cell phones providing information only give an advantage or is it just a matter of style?  Does "knowing" stuff from friends via cell phone give an advantage?  On the other hand could it be that "knowing" via an internal conversation, notes, and prayers to your gods is actually better then having access to all the information?  It seems that some people might be slower or at a disadvantage because they use phones.  

I don't see why access to information intrinsically allows someone to be faster.  It seems that if using simple phones to call friends is wrong we would also need to conclude that using of smart phones to access web sites and apps is also wrong?  If accessing information is wrong it might also be wrong to ask advice from other riders you meet on route.

[Bill in Houston]

Does "knowing" stuff from friends via cell phone give an advantage?

Yes.  Up above, a racer admitted that knowing other racers' positions helped him maintain his position in a situation where he otherwise would not have.  Without a doubt, people who use cell phones have an advantage.  Whether that advantage should be allowed or not is what we are talking about.

[DaveH]

This is an old argument.  The only thing I'll add is the shades of gray poll really boils down to no phone use or no taboo.  If allowed, they will (or can) provide benefit to the user. 

The GDR rules have clarity - bring it if you want, turn it on and you're done.

But seriously, if you want to ban phones from events, said events will follow the path of GDR.  If it isn't shared it didn't happen.