Using cell phones in ultra racing

[DaveH]

Do I hear you suggesting phone bans Toby?? 

Your first sentence opens 2 different big bags of worms.  But (with event organizer hat on) they all wash away with the basic premise that the experience takes precedence over all else.  In my opinion, nothing else even comes close to the importance of the experience.  Rules past a certain point no longer support the experience but instead begin to limit it.

I have done my best to come up with self-supported rules that allow for fair play and also leave a lot of room for personal interpretation to create the experience one desires.  If that is not restrictive enough for some - and they feel others will gain an advantage over them - I'll accept that.

It's just riding bikes in the woods, after all.

[febikes]

I don't understand how someone can remain a "self-reliant individual" while bumming gear/food/water/assistance from other riders or other trail users, or by having someone text the locations of other competitors. In both instances, they would be reliant on someone else, no?

The current rules for TDR seem clear on material assistance but I don't current see any clear prohibition on cell phone usage.  The TDR history seems to actually point to cell phone usage as allowed.  In any case the thread has been useful to see the views of others.

As I stated earlier my view is that "information" does not really change the event in a "material" way.  Basically a dumb phone and a couple of friends does not provide a material difference vs. a smart phone and an anti-social enlighten individual.

The most useful information that I got on route was from discussion with other riders who were riding next to me.  I might catch up with a really smart rider who has knowledge of the area around us.  Discussion on route with riders about the best bivy location or resupply points is generally much more useful then any remote person or web site.  When a rider next to you on route tells you something about the best stores in the next town or good spots to bivy is that also cheating?  Is all talk about the race cheating?

I think it's been a great thread and it helps me see all sides of the issue.  This may be a case where event organizers may want to be more clear about what they view as allowed.  I am an all or nothing sort of person and would hate to have a complex list of taboo subjects.  I would feel bad having to tell my friends and family what they can and can not include in texts or conversations.

[DaveH]

As I stated earlier my view is that "information" does not really change the event in a "material" way.  Basically a dumb phone and a couple of friends does not provide a material difference vs. a smart phone and an anti-social enlighten individual.

Communication with the outside world can and has changed race outcomes.  2009 AZTR is the classic example.  Nearing the finish but middle of the night and fatigued, the leader phoned home.  He was told to get going 'cause 2nd place was bearing down on him FAST.  The person he called was watching trackleaders.  Needless to say he hustled it on in from there.

Up to that point I was pretty much in the technophobe camp.  I didn't like SPOTs, and I didn't take a phone on bikepack trips.  Watching that race and reading of the outcome & how it came about was enlightening - and it was the #1 motivation to create bluedot.  Not everyone has a friend that can be dialed up for trackleaders beta.  Bluedot was an aim to level that side of the field.

[febikes]

Not everyone has a friend that can be dialed up for trackleaders beta.  Bluedot was an aim to level that side of the field.

In your view if the 2009 AZTR guy used an IPhone web browser rather then talking to someone would it be okay?

[DaveH]

In your view if the 2009 AZTR guy used an IPhone web browser rather then talking to someone would it be okay?

I'll stop short of answering yes to that since it would imply phoning home was not okay.  It was okay - it was within the rules.

A common thread in the justification for rules is a resource has to be "available to all" to be considered fair game.  I am saying that an inequity existing in that not everyone had a friend they could call in the middle of the night who could share current racer positions.  An app is now available to all - inequity removed.

[TruthRider]

Forgive my ignorance - what is this bluedot app?

Thanks.

[Done]

Do I hear you suggesting phone bans Toby?? 

Naw, just some simple self-restraint in how people use them.

I've had a massive epiphany while riding my bike to work this morning. Your "experience" comment was the inspiration. It's going to take me a while to put it in writing, but I think that I've FINALLY found peace with all of the banter about rules.

[Done]

Forgive my ignorance - what is this bluedot app?

Bluedot allows people with smartphones to track each other while racing. Pretty much a mobile version of Trackleaders. Dave Harris wrote it.

[DaveH]

Forgive my ignorance - what is this bluedot app?

Thanks.

http://bluedot.mobi/blog for some background, http://app.bluedot.mobi/ for the app.  It was made to be mobile friendly, although it will still work in most browsers (requires chrome frame plugin to work in IE).  The event data comes directly from Trackleaders.com, so in that regard it is very similar.  It was made to show the current status of an event, but not the more detailed rider history & analyses.

I made it for racers in mind, but in reality it gets used by spectators much more - factor of 100x probably.

[rooster14]

we had a good conversation about this at the lodge and i agree,
any use of your phone is a personal decision, just like taking more time at a stop or grocery (or checking leaderboard when you have access to a computer).  when you use it, take time to charge it etc, it is a trap and those who are involved in using their phone will have to take the trappings that come with it. 

[Flounder]

This is just a randam aside, but having my phone with me is certainly a luxury as it allows me to enjoy my adventure without the stress of wondering what calamity, if any, has befallen my life back at home. I did a 97 day sea kayak solo ten years ago and I only got a chance to check in every few weeks. That was stressful.  I also can't tell my friends and family, "Don't bother me for the next X weeks as I'm off having some selfish fun." A phone is a small convenience that often permits the big adventure.

[ruthslp]

I've only done like 3-4 days stuff, but I don't think they should be used.
I don't use mine, I feel talking to anyone outside who I encounter is motivational support and the apps are just plain support.
I carry one OFF, for emergencies only. I have used it to call MTB Cast a few times because I thought my spot was not working and just wanted to make sure someone got the message where I was in terms for safety. I doubt I would have service often anyway??
but then again, i only aim to do 3-4 days out at the most and no matter what advantage I have I'm bringing up the rear anyhow so maybe that is why I have these opinions? who knows, I just hope rules don't have to be made about it, in the meantime, I like challenging through the mental toughness of not having another person to encourage me, i think it's part of the whole experience

[Yogi the Barry]

Or... during my CTR ride, you could have one of the competitors, while he was wheel-sucking behind me on the grind up US-285 in the rain, tell me about how he had just called in a hamburger and fries order to a restaurant in Bailey to save time... or a few days later, be told by one of the competitors that he had called his girlfriend to arrange a meet at Molas Pass, so he could dump some extra gear to lighten the bike for the final push home...
Amazing what advantage a little ol' phone can provide...
-B
[true confession edit: I did use my phone in Bailey to verify that I was being tracked by my Spot  - I'm glad I checked because it had me in Silver City, NM - and again in Leadville to confirm that the problem was fixed, but all other use of the iPhone was to send OUT texts that I was OK and to send out photos.]

[Done]

Or... during my CTR ride, you could have one of the competitors, while he was wheel-sucking behind me on the grind up US-285 in the rain, tell me about how he had just called in a hamburger and fries order to a restaurant in Bailey to save time... or a few days later, be told by one of the competitors that he had called his girlfriend to arrange a meet at Molas Pass, so he could dump some extra gear to lighten the bike for the final push home...
Amazing what advantage a little ol' phone can provide...

Yep, I heard a lot of this thing too. A bummer, really. I think that "self support" doesn't mean much to a large number of CTR racers anymore. Lots of people borrowing gear, calling home to get navigational assistance, etc...

[TruthRider]

Wow, I'm surprised at these comments about phone usage during the CTR.  Bums me out too.  I personally think that:
1)  I feel bad for the folks who can't even get away from the damn things when on the epicness of the CTR.
2)  Having said that, I used mine a few times to call my wife last year.  I didn't and wouldn't use it to get competitor info, arrange anything, navigation, etc.  I'm a bit blurry on this one because in fact, somewhere in my head I think that simply speaking to her and getting encouragement is crossing the lines of "support".
3)  Arranging a meet so I could drop gear I think is clearly prohibited, no?

[ruthslp]

wow, i can't believe the poll on this string says over 50% agrees that free use of cell phone discussion on strategy, weather, etc is ok.
i agree with the last 2 comments, keep it real. I've been around people using them quite often and i was kind of disgusted with the whole event after that.
let's face it, the only reason bikepacking is even growing in popularity the last few years is the fact of using technology in one way or another makes it easier!!! between routing on gps now, spot tracking, and phones really cut out a bulk of the original tactics/skills that were used and that most people would not attempt routinely or on such long routes.
I intend on continuing to not use mine no matter what anyone else does or how it puts me behind!
(now if i am out somewhere completely on my own scouting around, not for timing, then hell yeah I call home routinely!!)

[Done]

Every time a line is drawn in the sand (a rule), someone is going to find a way to make it blurry. That's life.

I've finally come to the realization that people will abide by whatever style they find acceptable, regardless of the stated rules. Even the organizers don't adhere to strict interpretations of the rules anymore.

My way of dealing with this is to state my style loudly and clearly--and then to stick with it. More demanding standards bring me personal satisfaction, and that's what matters. Climbers, mountaineers, and explorers have consistently raised their standards by doing things like foregoing oxygen, porters, etc.--and they've done so without asking for permission or submitting petitions. They just do it. Some follow along, and some don't. You can still hire a passel of porters and guides to escort you to the top of the world, or you can go fast, light, and self-supported. You can sail around the world on a Carnival Cruise, or you can race in the Vendee Globe. You can ski to the north pole in the dead of winter by dragging your own food, or you can have supplies airlifted in along the way. You can climb ice with spurs and leashes, or you can do without.

Ultra-racing is ready for people to make bold personal decisions that go beyond the stated rules. It's how the sport began, and it's how it can continue to evolve. Choose a style that fits your personality, get on your bike, and don't look back. I tried it this year, and it was damn satisfying. Sure, I briefly grumbled when I caught wind of people taking non-self-supported paths, but it didn't kill me like it did in the past. When I pulled into Durango, I was happy to have completed the CTR in a style that matched my spirit. I'm sure that those who made other decisions felt the same way. As Dave Harris recently stated, "it's about the experience." My experience was great, and I sincerely hope that everyone else's was too!