Bivy's and Sleeping bags

[J-No]

I'm looking for my first cold weather bag and bivy purchase.  Any advice?  Bivy with pole or no?  Brands/models?  Sleeping bag down vs synthetic? Brands/models?   I saw a -20F duck down bag at Gander Mountain today for $199.  Price wise it was half of most of the other down bags I see.  Any thoughts on a lesser know brand like this vs the bigger brands?

Obviously since I am carrying it on my bike, size is a concern.  That being said, I'd rather not spend 2x the money to save 6 oz.  I'm in MN if that helps with what kind of climate I'll be using it in.

Any other techniques/tips would be appreciated.

J-No

[Eric]

With more expensive bags you are going to get higher quality down and better shell fabrics which help protect it.
So you have to juggle cost, compressibility, warmth and weight. Like any down bag, if the down is low quality then it is going to loose it's loft fairly quickly and be a zero degree bag in 3-5 years.

For bivys - you'd only want a pole if it's actually snowing on your face, in which case you probably want to keep moving so you don't get stuck there!
Like wise if you close off your head area with a bivy you are going to encase that entire area in frost and wake up miserable anyway, so it's a loose loose.

[daveB]

I got an Integral Designs bag back in about 1996 and its great.  Of course, the exchange rate was about $.60 then, so the price wasn't exactly comparable to what you'd pay now.  Western Mountaineering, Feathered Friends, and Marmot all make great down bags.  Synthetic is a show stopper volume-wise.  Fill power costs $.

I'd go with a small silnylon tarp for winter use.  Stomp out an camping spot and rig it however works.  In a pinch you could burrito yourself for extra warmth.  Tarp will keep snow off your face and allow moisture to escape from your bag, keeping it dry and happy.

[J-No]

Thanks for the replies.  I was thinking synthetic because of the $$ as well as the idea that I will not use it all that much and the synthetic seems to be more forgiving as far as care is concerned.

I found this this morning.

http://www.rei.com/product/763631

I'll check out the tarp mentioned.

Edit: spelling

[Pivvay]

I buy a used western or feathered friends down bag before I wasted $200 on some cheap-o -20 bag.

[J-No]

Thanks for the note.  You all have me thinking down now.

[daveB]

Its easy to compare the price and weight of various bags.  Down weighs less and costs more.  One factor that usually isn't stated so clearly is that synthetic bags don't compress much, so they pack HUGE.  My wife had a North Face synthetic bag, but got annoyed that it filled her entire pack.  She sold it and got a women's specific down bag from LL Bean.  It doesn't have as nice down as the more expensive bags, but its pretty good.  LL Bean knows how to knock stuff off and have it made cheaply.  I just looked on their site, and they don't seem to offer a LL Bean -20 down bag.  So much for that idea.

For bikepacking purposes, the compressability factor isn't trivial.  If you have a large bag, where exactly are you going to carry it?  You just need an answer that works for you.

I also think that worries about the care required for a down bag are overstated.  The amount of moisture it takes to make down clump together and lose loft is significant.  With ordinary care, its just not a big deal.  A well cared for down bag will last a LONG time.

[Eric]

This past winter I brought an ultra light down bag (800 fill power) as an over bag to supplement my older -20 bag. Temps were -30 for a week. After 2 days the overbag was a useless frozen clump of down. This was in a tent not biking. On other trips like this I used a synthetic overbag with no problems, only that it was bulky. So it does happen and quite quickly.

Used expedition bags are not that hard to come by, look on boards in climbing shops for deals.

also consider a vapor barrier.

[J-No]

Thanks again for all the replies.  I stopped by my local outfitter's and they echoed many of the comments here.  They mentioned the care for the down bags is often overstated, but that the weight and bulk of synthetic should be condsidered.  They also mentioned that the store brand (rei, LLBean) bags are pretty good compared to TNF, Marmot, etc.

-J-No

[Jilleo]

I have a Marmot CWM -40 degree bag and it is a bundle of goodness. Some friends and I have been camping recently during a couple just-below-freezing nights, and I like to sprawl out with the zipper pulled wide open while they shiver in their 32-degree synthetic bags.

I've also slept in it down to 35 below. It's still a bundle of goodness.

[jkcustom]

I agree that down is the way to go, if for no other reason than compressability. The idea about looking for a clean, used bag is a good one...but I have had a difficult time, so far. I will check the climbing crowd as mentioned. It is really hard to think about throwing down 800$ for a bag I am only going to use a few times a year.
I have been a dog sledding guide for many years and have spent many many nights out below zero. Ironically, last year's Arrowhead Ultra was the first time I ever used a down bag. Everything about it was great, except for the vapor barrier liner. I thought I would use it to help keep the bag dry and relatively clean (it was borrowed...). I ended up having some of the worst nights sleep I have ever had outside (and not just because I was wasted from skiing.) Wet! Awful! Now, I realize that I was especially lazy that trip with not stripping off my race layers. Big Mistake! But having done similar things with my synthetic bags at similar temps, I felt much clammier and colder using a vapor barrier. Any thoughts?
Go down...just test-drive it well before race/trip time.

[Pivvay]

The VB system is tough. Some people love it, others hate it. For one or two nights it's probably not necessary unless you're using it to really push your bags temp rating. To go to the Pole, it's probably essential. You won't dry anything you're wearing in the VB liner itself so all wet stuff should probably come off. I think the key is to play with it before too. You can get VB clothing instead of a liner which might be more comfortable and you should only have a light base layer on under the VB area.

Setup a RSS feed craigslist search (email if you need help, it's easy I promise), esp in the Denver area. -20 bags come up relatively frequently there. Also summitpost.org and mountainproject.com also sometimes have -20 bags though not as often. You can post a want to buy add there which can drum up some options.

I bought my -25 Western Mountaineering bag when i was still an engineer. It was big money for something I didn't need then but I knew that down the road it would be so hard to justify and if I take care of it then it will last me for years and years.

[jkcustom]

Thanks for the advice and ideas. I might try those places for a bag. I think the key for me this year at the Arrowhead is to slow down and get the wet layers off. I have a very high threshold for sleeping damp...as long as I am warm. But last year was too much. Something I can improve on. Thanks again.

Jeremy
http://heckofthenorth.blogspot.com

[donmeredith74]

You might consider an Titanium Goat bivvy. The Ptarmigan is pretty popular, well built and priced VERY competitively.

[J-No]

Thanks for the replies everyone.  I went with an REI -20 deg down bag.  I bought an REI Bivy as well.  The bivy packs much smaller than I thought it would.

What's the best way to pack your sleep system?

[Slim]

I guess it's a little late for J-NO but I have always used a 10F bag here in MN in a uncoated bivy. This was with nights down to just below zero F (-18C) I'd guess. I wear powerstretch tights, top, gloves and balaclava topped with insulated pants, parka and booties. I am a cold sleeper to. The point being that if you are not wearing your insulating layers at night you are carrying extra weight. Plus wearing them makes pee breaks much more doable.

I prefer a simple uncoated bivy with a silnylon bottom: At these temps your not going to get wet from precip, but with such thick insulation the temperature differential between the two sides of the bivy is minimal, so any kind of impediment to breathability is going to create problems. I have a Sea to Summit one that costs about $60 I believe.