Ultralight snow chains for bike packing?

[mmeiser]

So,

Tenatively planning on doing a december ride / push of the Blue Ridge Parkway. This preceded by the Allegheny passage coming from Ohio, followed by the Natchez Trace to New Orleans and on to visit friends either in florida or austin, followed by a return trip up the eastern seaboard back through the allegheny passage if I can make it, I have about two months to bike/walk it.

Point is I'll be riding in a huge variety of climates and conditions. The primary issue I wanted to discuss here though is snow chains.

I've been fussing over the matter for months, slowly doing some research.  Don't see any production made snow chains, though KoolStop used to make some they were heavy and I hear they had some issues.

Don't want to use studded tires because I'll only be using them for a small bit of the trip. Don't want to be carrying them around or mail dropping different tires from A to B.  Honestly I might not even hit snow in December... most of the parkway may still be open and plowed, but then I might hit four feet. It's all part of the fun. And eventually I will be doing some snow riding and a lot of it.

So I like the idea of snow chains.

DIY ideas included chain + stainless steel wire and a friend even suggested nylon rope wrapped around the tire and rim.

The problem with all of the above ideas are complexity, and of course the possibility of doing major damage should they come apart and get into the spokes or drive train.

However I think I've stumbled upon something brilliant.

== heavy duty zip-ties!? ==

1) weigh next to nothing
2) extremely easy to put on / take off
2.5) re-useable
3) cheap
4) if they wear out they won't foul the drive-train, they'll just fall off.

Plan on testing out this idea immediately starting with a 35 mile on road commute.  Already have some big fat heavy duty 1/3" zip-ties.

I'm curious to weigh them.  I figure about 18 per wheel. That's one between every other spoke on a 36-spoke wheel. It's going to be light.

Just going to put one of them on my front wheel and rear wheel and see how long it lasts or if it does any wear damage.

== Concerns ==

1) will it scuff the rim

2) will it move around on the rim or tire / put any strain on the spokes / nipples?

3) will it wear the tire tread or sidewall

4) how long will it last. Riding it on paved roads will be a good test.

5) As for what kind of traction I'll have to settle for riding some beaches in the coming weeks. Unfortunately it may not snow here in SE Michigan for a month yet.



== Possible variations ==

I may be able to add something like nuts, washers, or some other device to the zip tie to increase traction on icy surfaces if zip ties alone don't cut it.  I haven't really brainstormed this much but I'm sure i can come up with a much better list of ideas if it comes to it.

I would love any other suggestions in this area as well as overall thoughts on the hair brained nature of this idea. I do think I'm going to need a little something more then a zip tie when it comes to icy conditions.

== another reason why disc brakes rule ==

BTW... this will be on my Salsa Fargo.  Another reason why disk brakes and having enough clearance for 2.5" tires rules.  Planning on using them with the stock WTB Vulpine tires which handle so well on back roads, singletrack and pavement.  Though I haven't gotten to ride them yet in the snow I don't think they handle very well in it as to be honest they don't handle that well in the sand.  But of course with snow chains I think I could have my cake and eat it too.

p.s. I may make another thread on other gear choices for this trip.

[peteshoe]

Let us know how it turns out.  Very interesting idea

[DesertDog]

Do a quick google search on bicycle snow chains.  A few different DIY projects to be found.

Here is one retail offering:  http://www.webmountainbike.com/chainformoun.html

Good luck.

I'll stick with trying out snowshoeing!

[jhl99]

Can't help much with chains, but I want make a few comments...

I live in SW PA.  The higher elevation on the Allegheny Trail,  (Somerset County, PA like Meyersdale area) can have more snow and colder weather than near Pittsburgh. 

The weather  (snow) is a crap shoot in December  .   I would gamble and place more importance on having full fenders than chains.  If snow is too deep or unridable, the escape to ride on roads.  On the otherhand, cold, slushy spray on the lower legs and feet for days on end would not be fun... (but maybe you already covered this anther way). 

I've never used chains, I would guess that in less than 4" of new snow over frozen ground then are not needed, since you are not talking single track.  If there is more than 4" of snow, I'm not sure if chains would give much improvement.  If there is snow in December, it is unlikely it would get packed down and compacted by trail users.  (random xc skiers and hikers, maybe the odd snowshower if there is 8+" of snow.)   The National Weather Service has all kinds of statics for snowfall by month... might want to check out the stats for critical areas.

I was on a trip to mountain bike in Western NC (Asheville/Bervard) area a few Octobers ago and there was a snow event.... maybe 1-2" at the high elevations at the BRP outside of Brevard.... They don't plow the BRP, they just shut the gates... the BRP is a limited access 2 lane road open only to non commerical vehicles.  If I recall, the  National Park service is a little touchy about biking off of the road itself (in some places you are supposed to carry your bike accross National Park Service property to get to National Forest land and single track), not sure about how they would react to riding the gated parkway (maybe this is why you refer to a 'push of BRP'?).  The obvious work around,if snow depth or regulations are an issue, is to drop to alternate roads at lower elevation.  When I was in NC though, locals told me that in if snowed, in generally melted the next day.... I think last winter was a bit out the ordinary.

If you have the energy, there is some great single track riding around Brevard.  Asheville/Brevard would be a good place for a little break 1/3 of the way into the trip.

[jhl99]

This might the year for real snow in December...

http://tribune-democrat.com/local/x278367718/Area-could-see-a-foot-of-snow

Allegheny Highlands Trail goes through Somerset county...

JOHNSTOWN — Cambria and Somerset counties could receive up to a foot of snow by the time Tuesday ends, said senior meteorologist Carl Erickson of AccuWeather.com.

That would be the total snowfall, counting that which fell on Sunday, he emphasized.

Schools in and around Johnstown are closed today. Some schools in neighboring counties were working on delayed morning starts.

The higher elevations in Cambria and Somerset counties could see up to 18 inches by the end of the day Tuesday, Erickson said.

[mmeiser]

@jhl99: Thanks for the info on the parkway and allegheny passage.  I've had to delay my trip until after christmas so I could meat my new nephew which is the second time its been delayed. THis puts it into the ridiculous category but I'm a real stubborn *ss. "F*** it I'm doing it anyway".   The good news is I'm very well geared and am planning on doing a couple big shakedowns before christmas here in Michigan.

I do realize that at points the Allegheney and parkway may be completely unpassable even via hike-a-bike.  Perhaps nothing short of snowshoes or skiis. While I may improvise some snowshoes for fun I'm not really ready to go this far and thus I may drop off the parkway or allegeheny passage and take backroads which should be plowed.  The advantage I have of this trip is I don't have a timeline. I just have to be back mid-february.  Also while I'd like to get south and perhaps do the Natchez Trace it's not really of high importance to me. In fact, I've been looking longingly at the Trans Georgia trail. Even have the GPX on my phone, but it to like the parkway may have to much snow over to much of its length.

BTW, I have 150 miles on pavement and backroads on my test zip ties, they and the tire are holding up well.  I added a little duct tape to the sides of the zip tie to protect the sidewalls from chafing.  I'm thinking this will be good for hundreds of snow miles without a problem.  Especially since I'm using Vulpine Tires, a very light race tire.  I will be changing to Nanoraptors for the ride.  It is the one thing where I hope I'm not undercutting myself but I didn't see a nice Schwalbe Marathon XR or anything like that for 29'rs.

Also... I have a plan to add metal studs which I'm starting to experiment with in the hopes it'll make the setup more predictible on black ice. Alternatively I've had some success with a nylon tube around the zip ties to add grip in deep snow.

[sean salach]

Not to be the debbie d-bag in the group, but if they do happen to eventually break and just fall off, who's going to pick them up? If you get a flat, you've got to remove most, if not all, of them to fix it, and you'll be left with a pocket full of really short zip ties.

[mmeiser]

Not to be the debbie d-bag in the group, but if they do happen to eventually break and just fall off, who's going to pick them up? If you get a flat, you've got to remove most, if not all, of them to fix it, and you'll be left with a pocket full of really short zip ties.

zip ties are easy to remove with anything with a sharp point such as the tip of a small knife. There will be at most 18 per wheel, I think I can remove them and put them back on easily enough if I have a flat.

If one does break and fall of, it will become litter. That said... I doubt I'll lose any unless I end up doing 500 plus miles on them... and that's a lot of snow miles. Like I said I only have about 150 on one so far and it shows know major signs of weakening. At the very least it's not like their all going to fall off one day and leave a pile or piles of litter all across the land. FYI, I did mention this when I first posted.  Anyway... it's better then a snow chain braking and going into the drivetrain.

[bmike-vt]

Would be interesting if these actually work, and if you could make a set for your bike:
http://www.activeoutdoors.info/activeoutdoors/Article91.html

[mmeiser]

Fascinating.

I just discovered a thread on backpackinglight where there's an old Japanese technique of using a sort of straw sandal type deal for traction in the snow. The original poster stumbled on some old Japanese ladies coming back down from hiking up a mountain using cord they'd woven from nylons.  It also reminded me of how eskimos use to ice and scrape the runners on their wooden sleds with hot water to impregnate the wood with ice.

I think the concept is that the snow and ice packs into the rope / cloath / wood and becomes crystalized in essence acting much the same way a stud would.

The question is would this work on glare ice / black ice.   I have no doubt I'll have plenty of traction in the snow, what concerns me most right now is avoiding going down on black ice.  As such I will probably only run whatever I come up with on the front tire just to give me some control.

BTW, in addition to the zip ties I'm also now thinking of trying out some sort of braided rope. Perhaps a hemp roap if I can find it, but as long as it's braided and not nylon snow and ice should impregnate it.

That backpacking light thread:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=28921

[bmike-vt]

wondering if you take the idea in the bplite thread of a rope and use someting metal or diamond embedded?
diamond cutting wire for cnc / band saws?
it might wreak havoc on your rims / tires.

http://www.ehwachs.com/Engineered-Products/productcategory/Abrasive-Cutting-Technologies-1/Diamond-Wire-Cutting-74/RSWF-Waste-Liner-Cutter-244.html

[mmeiser]

yeah... that's the problem, need to keep the sharp side out.

That said, check this out:


Studs? by mmeiser2, on Flickr

The zipties definitely work. I'm thinking this will work, screws are very solid, but I think the big one (3/8") is to agresive. The little 1/4" or whatever it is should more then do it.

Note also these are on WTV Vulpine tires with a well worn microtread. They are a racing tire, roll great on the road as well as backroads.  I'm testing it on these but I have a pair of WTB Nanoraptors of the same size (2.1") that I'll be running.  Would have liked a new pair of Vulpine but they're sold out through QBP. Nanoraptors should actually work better in the snow though.

So, I think I'm going to head out shortly and give this a run.  We'll see how it holds up.

BTW, I don't want to make these things to complex (so far they're not), but I'm thinking I could put a back on the zip ties if the round metal studs dig into the tire or I could simply grind the heads a bit to make them more round. But this pre-supposes I'll have a problem.

FYI... obviously a Marathon or other heavy touring tire would be infinitely more durable, but Schwalble doesn't currently have any 2"+ 29'r touring tires.   So, obviously I'm going the complete opposite direction and running the lightest 29'r tire around. Makes sense doesn't it.

[6thElement]

Looking at that I'd definitely go for the shorter, you don't want the spike to try and fold. But I would be concerned about possible wear from the screw head on the tyre.

[jhl99]

Looks like a meltdown is coming:



I was in far Western MD for X-Mas, about 30 miles S of Great Allegheny Trail... but similar elevation and weather...
maybe 6" of loose snow on top of 2" or so base, at least before the forecasted rain.  Depending on how complete the meltdown is before refreezing, chains might be a good idea.

[mmeiser]

big bummer

BTW, I scrapped the "snow chains". Initial tests were very good, but zipties aren't consistent in how they handle cold. Some types crack. So I'm skipping it for now.

[KPut]

I saw this earlier today and then checked out this thread.  Good luck on the trip mmeiser.

http://lifehacker.com/5719714/zip-tie-snow-tires-the-cheapest-way-to-blizzard+proof-your-bike

KP

[ridebikeme]

Although there were some problems with the older Kool Stop chains, the initial orders worked incredible! I own two sets, and have used them extensively since the early 90's. I have done several trips either alone or with others, and no on seemed to have any issues.They were made for a tire size, and if I remember correctly the sizes were 2.1 and 1.9. At any rate, I know that they are no longer available, so be cautious with your choices and test ride them LOTS!

AS for the zip ties, I think in a commuter situation they make work well. I do wonder how they will hold up with cold temps though.

Lastly, disc brakes are definietly the way to go.. obviously they will not freeze up. I have seen  the snow bike, although I'm having a brain lapse at the moment, and can't recall the brand...if you aren't running disc brakes on this your brakes will definitely freeze. A bit heavy, but perhaps someone is on the right track. AS for me, I'll stick to my studded tires or chains to survive the winters here in Maine.

[mmeiser]

Just an FYI, I am back from my trip, I did not take anything as studs, in the end I figured they were all of use for snow, but useless on black ice which was really my only concern.

The trip was a good success with my riding from the cleveland area, down the cuyahoga, over around Pittsburg on the Panhandle, the Montour Trail and the entire Allegheny Passage, then up the Shenendoha to Front Royal where I did started the Skyline Drive, then the Parkway to Asheville. Finally I road over to Charleston, SC before returning to Michigan via the train through DC.

Weather was superb the whole trip, almost disappointed I only ran into two snow storms and a freezing rain storm. Crazy really considering the winter. 

Ironically I nearly busted my shoulder hitting some black ice after the freezing rain and going into a berm, but luckily after some R&R in waynesborro at the end of the skyline and start of the parkway I ended up feeling good enough to continue.

Nothing but perhaps the Kool Stop chains or some studded tires would have helped on the ice.

SO, I did get plenty of good snow riding. Many places on the parkway were closed, many north facing slopes were still covered in snow. I was able to ride 90% of these with some great effort, and really only hike-a-biked because I could often no longer sustain the high level of stamina to continue to ride up them.

I spent a whole day after one of the storms, and well into the night hike-a-biking over mountains on the parkway making very few miles, but it cleared up pretty quick.

So... I think I got a few great shots.

Here are some of the most popular:

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/mmeiser2/popular-interesting/

lots of personal favs, but I really liked this one


Blue ridge parkway by mmeiser2, on Flickr

[mmeiser]

FYI, the below absolutely did not work, the zip ties were inconsistently brittle and broke, without the metal studs it worked excellently but just for snow... zip ties are of no use for ice... and really all I care about is protection from black ice.


Studs? by mmeiser2, on Flickr