Water Transport or Winter Endurance Events

[jkcustom]

Chris

If you don't mind sharing...define the "camel up" approach.

[Pivvay]

Drink extra at sources be that at the start, a check point or when you have to stop to filter/melt snow for water. Carry less between sources.

Water usage does seem to be a trainable quality IME.

[jkcustom]

I like the theory...but I don't know if my stomach would agree!
The more I mull over this extremely important topic (the national health care debate has nothing on this...) the more I think I am leaning toward bottles. It recently got cold up here again and it always shocks you at first. I always forget what a big difference there is between 20 degrees and minus 20. Things (fingers, valves, ect) just don't work like they do when it's warm. The idea of having that @$!%! bite valve freeze again, thereby shutting off my water supply, makes me cringe. Plus, all my creative power has been going toward the packs. So the freeze proof camel might have to wait (until I steal or come up with a design that is fool proof).

[timroz]

Blow the water out of the hose back into the bladder.  Then stuff the hose tip inside your layers / under your armpit.

Can you carry 5 liters in bottles w/o it freezing for 24 hours?  Where would you put (5) 1 liter bottles?  In a pack - frozen.  In pockets - frozen.  Under all your layers?  I can do that with a bladder comfortably.  The hose *might* freeze at -35 but I still have water.  PITA to get to, but better than ice.  I also carry a small ti cup, that way if the hose freezes I can pour water into the cup for a drink every hour or so.

[jkcustom]

Who said anything about carrying 5 liters? That's ridiculous. But I do like the idea of keeping the hose in the jacket...

[buttah]

I carry two 32 0z. Nalgenes with Granite Gear parkas.  Put some chemical warmers in the bottom of the parkas.  Melt snow when necessary.  My water didn't freeze in the 07 Arrowhead.

[timroz]

That's ridiculous.

OK

[sean salach]

I've this little 50 oz camelback that works for me on rides where 50 oz is enough.


(the photo should show up eventually, I just uploaded it to flickr)

Using it over my baselayer, but under all the others, the only part I've had freeze has been the hose to bladder connection. Blowing the water back and tucking the valve has kept it free and clear. The solution for my hose to bladder freezing issue is to simply open that little zipper there, and throw a heat pack inside, only closing the zipper partially. It's really nice to be able to drink easily while riding.

[J-No]

J-NO

Thanks for the tip~ I was running my monkey-on-my-back lately, too...but the same problem keeps coming up...freezing at the valve (I think). Where do you get new, longer tubing to run through your sleeve? And have you had it freeze up that way yet?  I thought I was golden on a two hour ride yesterday...but on the way home again the same problem occurred.
Do you buy some length by running it through lower out of the pack?

I have been busy sewing up a handlebar sleep roll system, frame bag and  seat stuff sack sling ala Epic and Carousel. I think they will work well. The whole sewing thing has been a lot of fun. Designing this stuff  takes a bit of time, but the sew up is not very difficult. And way less expensive than the pros. I will post photos this weekend.

Thanks!

I have yet to have frozen valve/hoses.  I just got some longer tubing at Home Depot.  10ft for $3.XX.  Be sure to get 1/4" INSIDE diameter.  I tried 3/8" and it seems to fit, but was not as tight as the original tubing.  I tried the 1/4" ID tubing and I had to work to get it on just like the regular tubing.  It's really tight at the bladder.  I don't think I could get it off without cutting it (that's what I had to do to get the old tubing off).  I may throw a chest tube clamp in my pocket just in case I run into a frozen/broken valve.  I leave the valve just outside the cuff of my sleeve, it does not freeze in my pogie.

[MikeC]

I've only ever had one issue with a camelbak system, and that was last winter when a bladder seam failed.  Bad juju when that happens inside your sleeping bag.

Had I known what to look for, I could have spotted the weakness in the seam before I ever left on that trip.  Live and learn.

Otherwise, I've successfully used bladder-based backpack systems year-round for 20+ years.  Think about that: ~5 days a week, year-round, for 20+ years, and only one failure.

Hard to beat that track record.

I keep my pack on top of a base layer and under my shell.  I cut all of the insulation out of the part that goes against my back.  Most importantly, I created a layered insulation setup for the hose, so that it has three layers of neoprene between it and 'outside', but nothing between it and me.  Put another way, my body heat can get easily at the hose, but outside cold can't.  I also have it routed so that the hose is always pressed against my belly/side/chest--lots more heat there than along your arm.

No pics that I'm aware of.

MC

[Dave in Victor]

Man, the Camelbak in the winter is my nemesis but I am committed to perfecting it.  I seem to have the unique talent of being able to freeze my system up when everyone around me is riding ice-free.  And I am really trying NOT to freeze it.  Ha! A couple of small things that I have noticed are:

1) If you fill the bladder to 100%, blowing back into the tube isn't effective until you drink a bunch of the water.  You need some extra volume for the "blow back" to work. Using a 6 liter bladder and only adding 3 liters is great.

2) If you wear your Camelbak under a shell and the shell fits too tight, the pressure from the shell will force water from the bladder into the tube and it will freeze at the bite valve.

3) Keeping the bite valve out of the wind is key but I struggle with the perfect location and being able to access it easily with mittens on.  I have frozen mine many times when working hard and only wearing a base layer + soft shell jacket at 0F.

[Damnitman]

MikeSee, I think I'm almost more interested in knowing what to look for in the way of faulty seams...

[sean salach]

MikeSee, I think I'm almost more interested in knowing what to look for in the way of faulty seams...

+1

[Damnitman]

"Had I known what to look for, I could have spotted the weakness in the seam before I ever left on that trip.  Live and learn."

C'mon Mike, you've left us hangin long enough...

[Damnitman]

I know what to look for on a Nalgene flexible cantene (I had leakage on one I keep in my fart sack to pee in, fortunately while it still had water in it...) http://www.nalgene-outdoor.com/store/detail.aspx?ID=1078  In the spirit of sharing, the following...There is a spot where they bond the "multi layer film of the bottle to the hdpe "body" at the top. This body isthe chunc of plastic that comes up to form the threaded mouth...anyways, If there is a little...well, crease at the corner of the taper where the films and the hdpe are bonded, this is  a weak spot that can quickly fail, hopefully with only water inside...

[timhMN]

Anyone tried either of the insulation systems for bladders from camelbak or granite gear?

http://www.rei.com/product/631126 - CamelBak Thermal Control Kit

http://www.granitegearstore.com/Winterizer-P51C5.aspx - Granite Gear Winterizer

[MikeC]

"Had I known what to look for, I could have spotted the weakness in the seam before I ever left on that trip.  Live and learn."

C'mon Mike, you've left us hangin long enough...

You just gotta do a close inspection of the seam all the way around the bladder.  Any variability or questionable looking areas are just that--questionable.  I saw one of those spots on a Camelbak bladder seam a few years ago and, in a moment of stupidity, thought, "Meh--it hasn't failed yet, what's to worry about?". 

Plenty to worry about on a winter bivy when you wake up soaked to the waist with a wet sleeping bag, wet pack, etc...

[Damnitman]

Yeah, sure enough...Fortunately I noticed my Nalgne leaking right away...Wasn't overly cold out either, -10 f or so with no wind...
 

[Eric]

MSR bladders have 1/2" of welded seam,  I've never heard of one failing.

[MikeC]

MSR bladders have 1/2" of welded seam,  I've never heard of one failing.

If you're talking about the MSR cordura-esque dromedaries, yeah, they are Burly.  Never seen or heard of one failing either, and I've had a few for 6+ years getting used often in packs and (on car camping trips) hanging from trees as hydration and/or showers.  Burly.

But the cap/elbow/hose dealio that they use could be improved upon by an ADD monkey.  Teeeny flow through that elbow, super bulky, and hard to insulate.  I've never looked hard at an alternate setup, but if you could come up with one that had better flow/less prone to freezing, the MSR bladders are about as failsafe as can be expected.

MC