Water Transport or Winter Endurance Events

[Eric]

yeah just the drom lites, the normal black ones are in another league by their own. I have a 10L one of those I call big pappa.
 
Super Bulky though?  I think the big handle things on the camelback bladders are bulkier, and the bonus is that you can detach the hose, switch caps, completely seal up the bladder and kick it around all night in your bag if you were so inclined.

[sean salach]

Could swear I saw a skier in the '08 Ultrasport with an MSR Dromedary bag with hose attachment.

[MikeC]

yeah just the drom lites, the normal black ones are in another league by their own. I have a 10L one of those I call big pappa.
 
Super Bulky though?  I think the big handle things on the camelback bladders are bulkier, and the bonus is that you can detach the hose, switch caps, completely seal up the bladder and kick it around all night in your bag if you were so inclined.

I was referring to the ones like your Big Pappa.  I've got a 4, 6, and 10L and they're burly.  But yeah--bulky and clunky cap/elbow/hose.

No argument about the camelbak bladders--they're flimsy *and* bulky, and a PITA to get open.  After my fateful in-bag encounter with the camel I switched to the Hydrapak bladders.  Not quite as burly as the MSR droms but much burlier than the camels, and svelter and easier to open/close than both.

MC

[Eric]

that was 3 burlies in one post. nice.

[MikeC]

that was 3 burlies in one post. nice.

I tossed in a flimsy, a clumsy, and a svelte to even things out.

[Eric]

right, but back to those "in-bag encounters with camels". Tell us more, that sounds uncomfortable if not also humiliating and impractical.

[MikeC]

right, but back to those "in-bag encounters with camels". Tell us more, that sounds uncomfortable if not also humiliating and impractical.

What--are you workin' on your post count?  Go fer a run or somethin'...

Camels are warm, and they don't drink much.  Make sense now, Mr. Poopypants?

[Eric]

oh come on, this did not need to get personal. But hey 152!

[bmike-vt]

Anyone tried either of the insulation systems for bladders from camelbak or granite gear?

http://www.rei.com/product/631126 - CamelBak Thermal Control Kit

http://www.granitegearstore.com/Winterizer-P51C5.aspx - Granite Gear Winterizer

I've used the CamelBak thermal hose and bladder cover. XC skiing down to -10°f, several hours out. Eventually froze, even with blowing the water back through the system. Have used it to 0°f with longer use times. Never kept it in my jacket all my arm...  that would probably make for a much longer use time. 

[Jilleo]

For 2 hour-8 hour advenutres in temperatures ranging from -5 to 30 degrees, I've had a fair amount of success with a Camelbak bladder with absolutely no insulation (no hose, no bladder cover.) Even storing it outside my coat, I can curb freezing by blowing water back into the bladder, and when it eventually does freeze (which it will, no matter what you wrap around the damn thing or how many times you drink out of it and blow air back in), you can fairly easy thaw out the valve and other ice-buildup areas using your mouth. A bit tedious, but better in my opinion than using insuation, which prevents you from locating and re-warming the ice blockage.

Bottles with insulated covers and MSR bladders are still best, and still the only option for anything longer than a half day.

[JulieM]

Most of my winter riding is below 0F for most of the season.  I've only ridden long distances (5+ hours) to as cold as 30 below, but I figured out a way to use a camelbak bladder and have no problems with it freezing. (I didn't read all of these threads so maybe someone mentioned this). A friend helped me make a thin Conduit backpack for a camelbak bladder. I wear it between my baselayer and my remaining layers, and keep the hose in this same layer between my base layer and middle/outer layers.  If it's warm enough that you don't need more than a thin baselayer, then it's not cold enough to freeze.  As Jill mentioned, blowing back into the camelbak hose is a key to the hose not freezing in sub-freezing temps.  I've tried the camelbak insulation tubes and they don't work much below freezing for long rides, and I've also tried Nalgene bottles with insulation pouches but find these to be too bulky.  The only tricky part is making sure that your camelbak tube does not fall out from between your layers and expose itself to these sub-zero temps.  Good luck!

[stumpbumper]

Through the years I have managed to accumulate Deuter Hydration backpacks in three sizes, small (Hydro Lite 3.0), medium (Race X Air II) and a bit larger (Futura 28 AC).  I have a Deuter 3-liter water bladder that I interchange between them.  I also have an extra-cost option called the Thermo Bag which is a zippered-top insulated bag that completely encloses the bladder and fits inside the pack. The bag is thin enough to not take up a lot of space inside the pack but obviously thick enough to prevent water inside the bladder from freezing.

The bag came with a snap-on insulated cover for the hose and I have never had water in it freeze either.    I have not used the system down to 40 below but I have used it close to zero with no problem.  I also like the system for summertime use--I simply dump in a drinking glass full of ice cubes, top off with cold water from the fridge and it stays cold for quite a long time, even at 100+ temps. 

I just looked at the Deuter website and don't see the Thermo Bag listed but that doesn't necessarily mean it has been discontinued.   http://deuteroutdoor.com/zm_Biking%20-%20Hydration.asp

[wheelmanron]

Hi everyone. Has anyone tried a small amount of salt in their water? Salt lowers the freezing point of water. I use 1/8 teaspoon per liter and I have never experienced total freeze up in my bottles or hydration packs. Besides winter camping and biking, I also do winter motorcycling. No, I may not experience -40 when I start, but I can tell you that 65mph on the highway at 0 degrees f gets cold enough to freeze water in the fuel in the carb, and I always carry a few water bottles on the outside of my luggage. With the salt, they don't freeze.

[wheelmanron]

Sorry, I skipped an important tip. Use kosher salt-it will dissolve in cold water, and it won't have that iodine taste.

[Damnitman]

http://arctic-innovations.com/index.html

[mmeiser]

Fascinating thread, don't know how I overlooked it for so long. Plenty of really experienced people posting.

I'm no alaska biker, but here's what I found in my 30 day bike down the eastern divide last january.

1) I used a 48oz nalgene for my primary water source

While the nalagene's are "heavy" by most of my gear standards they are indestructible and you can beat, boil and freeze the heck out of them.   That said I never had more then a little bit of ice in mine.

Technique: I rolled this up in my insulated Big Aigness primaloft insulated airmat each morning, and put it in a lightweight sea-to-sumit dry bag (not the clear plastic sealine dry bags that crack in cold). I found the bottle could slide in and out of this very easily.  I then pulled out the bottle, stuck one of my smartwool socks I sleep in in the bottom and slid the bottle back in.  Found I didn't need insulation in the top.  This whole thing was mounted on my right front fork with a Salsa Anything Cage.  The large volume of the bottle is important as is the insulation technique. In my freezer tests prior to my trip rolling the bottle up in my insulated airmat, the dry bag and the smartwool sock trick kept water from freezing 2-3 times longer then anything else, plus everything is multipurpose, meaning I'm not carrying around some extra insulating cozy only for my water bottle.

2) always use hot water

Each night I'd boil/purify water / melt snow and fill my 48oz nalegen and put it in the bottom of my bag after dinner and let it warm the whole bag for 15 minutes before going to bed.  Best trick ever.

I'd also fill it full of the hotest water I could find every chance I got... which is not a lot on the closed blue riddge parkway in the winter.

3) bladders + UL backpack

My secondary water source was two 1L platypus bladders, I filled these every evening with extra water for cooking and overnight, at least when it was convient even if their was snow... suprisingly there was little snow for melting in the appalachians in january... weird winter.

Besides the hot nalgene in the bottom of the sleeping bag 15 minutes before sleep the second best tip I have is putting a hot water bladder in your backpack as close to your back as possible in the evening.

I definitely usually dislike stuff on my back, but there is nothing like a nice warm water bladder against the back as the temps drop in the evening. It's spectacular... also a great trick for getting going in the morning as well btw.

FYI, you'll note I don't bother with hoses. I stop to drink water, usually. The bladders on my back are secondary so I only need to access them when I fill them up or empty them completely.  My primary drinking source was my 48oz nalgene on the right fork. I could even access it while riding by reaching down and unclipping / unrolling the dry bag and sliding it out, but mostly I just stopped.

As for the backpack, I've been using a sea-to-summit sub-$30 ultralight keychain stuffable backpack... I only use this for supplimental water or storage, i.e. extra groceries/food/things I don't want to freeze like batteries or food items.

It should also be noted that taking off a layer or two in the cold to put a backpack on is not such an issue when the bladders are hot, you quickly warm right back up.  But my experience is not in alaska... my lowest high was 14 degrees one day, and my lowest low was probably -10 overnight. Iditarod is a whole nether game.

BTW, when it's warmer 30+ during the day, and during the summer 1L platypus bladders in the top of my main frame bag are my water storage method of choice. I even prefer them above typical water bottles.  They are uber light and flexible.  Just like racks and panniers I think traditional wb cages and bottles are clunky.  My frame bag covers up most of my water bottle mounts on my road bike anyway, and the main ones on my salsa fargo, and in the summer gear is so light I don't extra space besodes a mainframe bag + seatbag combination or a seat bag + bivy roll combination so extra bottles and cages are redundant... however traditional cages/bottles aren't going anywhere anytime soon because they and their mounts are so ubiquitous... i.e. the salsa fargo has SIX.

P.S. I've yet to have any leakage issues with platypus bladders, despite extensive cold and hot weather use.  I suspect I'll replace them long before they leak, at present pace I'm guessing that's 2-3 years heavy use each, about the same as a water bottle life (if only because I loose them). I have used hot platy bladders in my sleeping bag in winter overnight, they don't get nearly the longevity / warmth of a nalgene bottle. Partly because my nalegene was 48 oz and platy 1L, but mostly because they just don't self insulate as well as a traditional nalgene.

One last type... 1L platy bladder or nalgene with the top cut off makes for a superb UL bowl / mug. Almost as light as a ziplock but way tougher and more reuseable, great packing too. Stands up on it's own quite stable full of coffee or whatever too.