Water Transport or Winter Endurance Events

[jkcustom]

OK...I know this is probably a tired subject by now...but I still think there is room for improvement in the skill of keeping water from freezing on long events. I have had poor success with my camel-("monkey")-on-my-back. And I am talking temps to 40 below, too, with 20 below normal. The thought of stripping down to get to a protected bladder resting against my back is not something I relish doing.
There must be some decent tricks that I have not heard of yet.
Thanks for the advice in advance.

[DaveC]

The only thing I've found to be reliable below 0 (for hiking and skiing, in my cases) is nalgene wide-mouths and insulated parkas.  If it's really cold, starting with hot water is a good idea.  Don't let them freeze solid, and if they freeze a bit or freeze shut nalgene's are durable enough to whack them against a rock or tree to get the ice out.

Not as easy as a hydro system, but I've always found hoses and valves to be too fickle.

[Rob]

Camelbak has a product called the Racebak which is a baselayer with a hydration bladder built into the back. It has a removable pad that goes between the bladder and the back.  If you take it out thhere is only one layer of fabric between the bladder and your back.

http://www.camelbak.com/en/sports-recreation/wearable-hydration.aspx

Looks like there is now a vest as well.

[donmeredith74]

I'm in South Carolina so don't laugh too hard... do you think a small motor and prop would agitate the water enough to prevent the formation of ice crystals (similar to why even slow moving creeks are hard to freeze)?

[DaveC]

Water freezing in the bladder isn't really the issue, it's the hose, especially the typically smaller bits at the valve and the elbow that goes into the bladder.  Wider tubing helps, as does tucking the tube out of the wind, and a soft valve that you can chew on to clear the ice.  But in the end it ends up being a huge PITA.

[neve_r_est]

Last year I used 3, 1 liter pop bottles inside of 40 Below neoprene coozies. I wore a 1st edition camelback on my chest, stuffed one of the bottles in it, and ran an insulated pex tube into a cap and up my sleeve tethered to one of my fingers. No valve. When the hose end wasn't in the poagie, it was in my mouth. Worked till I got to the third checkpoint, then I just had to screw the caps off and drink from the bottles.

[Jilleo]

There's something to that jostling theory; I think that's why water in a bladder doesn't freeze as quickly, because it is constantly being jostled around in the backpack. There's also more insulation in backpacks, but my water in bladders is always the last to form ice crystals, and will generally just be slushy even after my bottles have frozen solid (which they do, even inside of insulated neoprene sleeves.)

My water-freezing solution for long or multiday events is to carry a six-liter MSR bladder with a small spout for pouring (no hose), and one 32-ounce bottle in an insulated sleeve. I drink from the bottle and refill it with the bladder. Having only one bottle minimizes the amount of dead weight you're carrying in the form of solid ice, which I think you'll find most bottles will be ringed with after more than a half day in subzero temps.

[jkcustom]

How do you carry the larger MSR bladder? As a pack, under layers? I think the simplicity of few hoses has its merits. Thanks for the advice!
Jeremy

[jkcustom]

Do you carry the bladder in a pack like usual...and then dig it out when you need to refill?
Thanks! Jeremy

[Jilleo]

I have a little backpack that I received for free during a 24-hour race, no support but really light, that even with quite a bit of water fits nicely beneath my coat (the bladder is the only thing that goes in it; usually I'm only carrying 2-4 liters although I can fit six.) It does require removing your coat to refill, but if you keep a liter bottle, you'll probably only have to do this a couple times a day. Keeping stuff you don't want to freeze as close to your body as possible is key. Water, camera, and lighter should be buried beneath your coat at least; even better if you can get them close to your skin.

[jkcustom]

Thanks...that's what I thought you would say.

[J-No]

Jeremy,

In the last couple of weeks I have been wearing my camelbak blowfish (It's bulky, but all I put in it is the bladder) under my jacket.  I put a put a couple of eyelets in the bottom and run the hose down my sleeve.   I use the L nozzle with the lock rather than the bite only valve to prevent leaks.  I may lengthen the hose a bit, but it seems to be working well.  I may actually carry 2 bladders for AH.  An extra 100oz of fluid would add about 6-7 pounds, but it if prevented having to stop to melt snow it may be worth it.

 

[jkcustom]

J-NO

Thanks for the tip~ I was running my monkey-on-my-back lately, too...but the same problem keeps coming up...freezing at the valve (I think). Where do you get new, longer tubing to run through your sleeve? And have you had it freeze up that way yet?  I thought I was golden on a two hour ride yesterday...but on the way home again the same problem occurred.
Do you buy some length by running it through lower out of the pack?

I have been busy sewing up a handlebar sleep roll system, frame bag and  seat stuff sack sling ala Epic and Carousel. I think they will work well. The whole sewing thing has been a lot of fun. Designing this stuff  takes a bit of time, but the sew up is not very difficult. And way less expensive than the pros. I will post photos this weekend.

Thanks!

[J-No]

I'd like to see them.  I'm thinking Home Depot will have some tubing.  The valve is in my sleeve and in my pogies, so no freezing.  I have been using the same length, but I can feel it pull a little when I stretch my arms.

I'll have a frame bag, I'm going to use a compression sack strapped to the front, and a compression sack strapped to my rear rack.  Hopefully it will be enough.

[DaveC]

The down the sleeve trick is really a quite clever idea.  May have to try it skiing this winter.

Any hardwear store should have surgical tubing of the correct diameter.

[Kid Riemer]

Nalgene's with bottle parkas. Reliable. Simple. Risk free. Waterbladders and hosing...a disaster waiting to happen. IMO.

[Pivvay]

The problem is Nalgene's still freeze in parkas. You've got to be careful with the bladders but they do work. Mikesee even uses one.

[Eric]

If you use bottles it's all about the amount in the bottle. A little water will freeze fast where as a whole bottle will take a while. The camel method works - drink lots when it's still warm and full,  don't leave less than a third of a bottle just sitting there to freeze.

Chris - Mike has also had his fair number of problems with bladders.

a combo of both, like Jill mentioned has worked for me too.

[Lonesome Luddite]

If temps are low (sub-zero) carrying more than 2-3 liters isn't worth it.  Pretty much no matter how you pack it it will freeze before you can use it.  I've used Camelbaks (hose froze), Thermoses (lid froze shut), and Nalgenes with parkas (slushy).  I'm going back to the Camelbak this year because if I do it right I'll be sure to drink enough. 

[Pivvay]

I'm not a bladder user in winter any more myself, I just know it can work. I like not having anything on my back in all seasons these days when it can be worked out. I like the "camel up" plus 1L thermos approach which so far works for me. If I have to melt snow, I'll melt snow. If I have a meal to eat at the same time I highly doubt it's much time lost in the long run since a meal always gets the body back on track from the deficit it's always running.