Winter Shoes--back to the drawing board

[J-No]

My original plan was Lake Winter shoes, boot liners over top, and mountaineering overboots.  (I have the Lakes in the correct size already).  This system is way too bulky, and requires pedal extenders to clear the crankarm.  I thought about using snow boots with power straps, or possibly taking snow boots to the cobbler to convert to clipless (ideal solution).  Providing a stable platform to bolt the cleats onto looks to be challenging.

I have looking at jkcustom's and pivvay's respective blogs and checked each of blog this am.  It looks like Chris is addressing this problem as well.  I'm looking forward to hearing of their progress.  No snow in MN yet.  I'm going to take my snow boots/platforms out on some gravel today and see that they work for me.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. 

J-No

[Pivvay]

Stuffing things further and further outside the boot is a big problem in many ways as you found out. What is your starting shoe size?

Converting winter boots to clipless isn't going to be straight forward to any cobbler but I'm hoping the path I'm taking can help others out too. There are a lot of  good winter boots out there, they're just not any clipless ones.

[J-No]

My shoes are 9.5.  I tried Mike C's method with a 9.5 liner, but could not get it to fit in a Lake boot at my LBS.  All they had was a 48, but it was not close.  It was $$ as well.  I have some Cloumbia boots that I wear in the winter and I was looking at those yesterday.  I'd get a little bigger ones to convert to clipless, but I figure I'd ride in them today with flat pedals to make sure I did not have any issues pedalling with the taller boot.

I was going to look at boots for snowshoeing, I wonder if they have a stiffer sole?  I see problems with mounting the cleat so it will not pull out of the sole.  I was thinking a metal plate over the cleat area (inside the shoe), covered with a plastic (2-3mm, rigid) insole to stiffen up the shoe. Felt insole over that.  Shave the knobs off of the sole to provide a flat mounting area.  Another rigid plastic plate on the outside.  4 small bolts with fender washers to secure everything--Heads on the inside going through the plastic-metal plate-sole of boot-plastic plate, with nuts on the sole.  Mount the cleats the same way.

You are correct in that a cobbler is not going to know what I am talking about.  I was hoping to bring my Lakes's in and explain and see if they had some suggestions. 

I thought of getting a pair of touring/mtn shoes in the same size as my winter boots and having the cobbler put the cycling shoe soles on my winter boots.  I'm still going to look into that.

I look forward seeing/hearing your thoughts.

[Pivvay]

A few thoughts. If you want the easiest setup just order the 50 wide Lakes and be done with it. I've seen them on sale for 220 lately. Might be cheaper than any other option in the end.

If you want to go a different way like the insert, don't forget that the footbed/last of a shoe is not flat but 3 dimensional. Also I would try to eliminate as much metal as possible from the construction.

If you get a really good cobbler I bet you can get the sole of a Lake Winter shoe installed on a winter boot. Getting a sole without getting the whole shoe seems next to impossible though. I'm trying to get one but so far have had no luck actually acquiring one from Vibram.

This is sort of ghetto but it does work and might get the gears turning:
https://www.londonfgss.com/thread10440.html

[J-No]

I forgot about the 3 deminsional thing.  That link was exactly what I was thinking of.  I'll have to brainstorm more.  Thanks.

[jkcustom]

I took my Tuff Lucks out for their maiden voyage this morning. My partners were setting a mean pace...so I had to struggle to stay with them with my current setup. Here are some thoughts:  

1. I have developed a real sensitivity for having my feet too far away from the crankarm. So with the regular sized Egg Beater spindles (that I abandoned this Spring for shorter ones and solved my knee problems) my knees felt awful after 4 hrs. Bummer!

2. Any and I mean ANY constriction of my toes causes them to go numb to some degree. So, I was down to a pair of liner socks at the end of the ride with still some numbness going on. I will have to switch to an ultra lite pair of insoles.

3. I really don't know if I can use these with the shorter spindles. I am back to the drawing board again too. My knees presented a bigger issue for me this season than I have ever dealt with. So...

4. I was able to clip in...and I used an old Ikea cutting board to lower my cleats away from the soles to clear the thick mukluk outer sole. There was a bit of slippage but I think I can tighten them down.

5. I felt waisted when I got home this morning. I think it was a good reminder about what proper leg/foot mechanics do to your overall power and comfort. Beware for this! It is really important.

Good Luck.

[J-No]

Whatever happened to shaving off the inner part of your foot?

I would struggle to stay with them on a mo ped.  You guys are animals.  Let me know what you figure out.  A widened Q factor does not bother me that much, but when I had to put extenders on to clear the crank coupled with the Pugsley 100mm BB it was getting rediculous., 

I let my wife sleep in this morning and now I am cranky that I did not ride.  I'm jealous of you guys.  As soon as I get half of the brood down for a nap I am going to take the other half to Gander Mtn to try on some boots.

Chris, I see you went with the pac liner.  Doesn't that slip around more than an insulated boot?

[Pivvay]

Yea the q factor at 100mm spindle doesn't bother me but pedal extenders would probably push me over the edge.

The pac liner is meant to fit with the boots I'm using so I'm hoping to limit slippage but the true test will be when the boots show up and I try them on with my sock system. I hate wearing tons of socks so a liner and the insulated VB sock will probably be all I use. My VB sock adds a decent amount of bulk. Also you really want toe wiggle room, that's more important than insulation though you'll need some.

The insole addition thing is tricky. I've got some good ideas in my head and I've laid up fiberglass before so I'm not terribly worried but I also doubt I'll get it right the first time. I have a feeling there will be a few iterations necessary. Laying up carbon is the same as fiberglass, just more expensive when you screw up. I've got a pair of running shoes that might be converted first before I cut the new boots.

If my insole thing works I will gladly share plans and/or make them available to others if that's feasible.

EDIT: My boot is insulated and has the pac liner. I'm sure it will be big but hopefully without bulky neoprene overboots I'll clear the cranks arm okay. I tested before with double plastics and it worked, they just suck to walk in.

[J-No]

I added a 5 mm insulated insole, a cycling sock and 2 pairs of thin wool socks (not that I am going to use that, but bulk wise it should be close) and came up with a size 11 (up from my normal size 9.5).  I did not find a whole lot, but I tried on these:

http://www.rockyboots.com/Product-Details/4594/1600FQ0007454/Rocky_BlizzardStalker_Waterproof_Winter_Boot/

They seem a little tall.  I have a pair of old shimano shoes size 11 that are begging to be ripped apart, so that may be my way to go.  Chris, is there any disadvantage to gluing the sole of a shoe in as in the link you provided? 

[Pivvay]

Coming up with an 11 you'll probably need at least a 12 if you add the shimano sole to it. The thing with adding the cycling sole is that it adds a lot of stack height (for lack of a better word) and many toe boxes are short by the time you add felt insoles. Winter boots are better at this but you still have to find the right one. One of my thoughts with the shimano sole method would be to sand/cut down as much of the thickness of the insole as sounds feasible.

If you order from Zappos you can return anything as long as you don't cut it up. That makes it easy to try on options if you cant' find a lot in stores as even REI doesn't have that huge of a selection.

[J-No]

I have a set of the long power straps coming tomorrow.  I'm going to try them with my boots and see how it works.  I'll be following Plesko's journey, but I'm not sure I'll put forth the effort.  Unfortunately when I bought my current boots (Columbia Ice Dragon) I did not get them big enough for multiple socks.  I like them and they do not make them any more.  

I have been looking at everything.  I'm looking for super warm, and not too bulky.  Most of the taller boots seem bulky.  I saw these, but I'm not convinced how warm they would be:

http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/shop/product_Sorel-Men-s-Conquest-Boot_10022838____?cm_mmc=CSE-_-GoogleBase-_-na-_-Sorel-Men-s-Conquest-Boot&ad_id=GoogleBase

For the flat pedal crowd, what you use?  Duluth boys, any opinions on the empire canvas True North boots (besides being pretty pricey)?

EDIT:  These look like an option:  http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20564-cat560046&id=0027184830506a&navCount=18&podId=0027184830506&parentId=cat560046&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=9IS&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat601233&hasJS=true

[Pivvay]

If you want space and insulation it's going to be bulky, no real way around it. It's far worse when you have big feet and still go up 2-4 sizes. Pete has posted his boots (3-4 sizes too big) on MTBR, they're some Cabela's thing and pretty cheap. The RU Outside boots I ordered showed up today. They're big but not quite big enough so I sent them back right away for the next size up. That should hopefully do the trick. It's been a lot of thinking and executing already but I like my toes and do feel it's worth the efforts. I did take them apart and try them with my other liners and socks, check for putting the cleats on them and such too. The stock RU Outside liner is nice and can probably be run as is with a little seam grip on the seams. The insole is pretty minimal but with all that out, getting the carbon insole plate installed should be nice and doable. The key is getting the main shape right and then laying up the extra carbon around the mounting location but I'm still hopeful after seeing them in person. They aren't any harder than a normal shoe. The sole looks great for adding screws too also and they do fit the cranks though there will be some rub I'm sure.

[timroz]

Some observations:

1.  When I am walking, my feet stay warm.

2.  When I am riding, being able to pull up on the pedals every stroke takes pressure off of the bottom of the feet and helps keep them warm.

3.  Being clipped in lets me pedal more in marginal conditions.

4.  Shoes 4 sizes too big work for me at -35.

I won't recommend my "system", because I do not like the brand of shoe I use.  But I think there is something to being clipped in.

[J-No]

I did see Pete's on there.  Your boots sound cool, I can't wait to see how they turn out.  I mentioned going to Cabela's this weekend (about an hour away) and it turned into a night in a hotel with the wife, 7 year old, 3 year old, and 18 month old twins.  I did manage to mention me riding home from there on Sunday.

Are you using vhbdesigns socks?

[J-No]

Thanks.  I'm not quite ready to give up on it.

Some observations:

1.  When I am walking, my feet stay warm.

2.  When I am riding, being able to pull up on the pedals every stroke takes pressure off of the bottom of the feet and helps keep them warm.

3.  Being clipped in lets me pedal more in marginal conditions.

4.  Shoes 4 sizes too big work for me at -35.

I won't recommend my "system", because I do not like the brand of shoe I use.  But I think there is something to being clipped in.

[Pivvay]

Tim...overboots ever and what's your overflow strategy?

I've got the RBH designs insulated VB socks as part of my system. I haven't tested the RBH ones extensively but i have used VB stuff for a while now.

[timroz]

Tim...overboots ever and what's your overflow strategy?

Avoid it?

I have a plastic bag as my outermost layer inside the boots.  If it's a short wet section I'll probably put trash bags on over my boots and walk it.  2 tall trash bags and some duct tape doesn't weigh anything.

For an extended / intermittent overflow problem, I don't know.

[Pivvay]

Sounds good Tim, at least you're honest! Overflow is obviously not a Colorado issue so I've been thinking about some ways to have good protection all the time. The trash bag solution would really suck for intermittent overflow. I know in the past some people have just waited for it to freeze too.

Anyway that's part of the reason I'm looking for the built in gaiter on the boot. Makes it easier to combine with the pants for taller "all the time" overflow/break thru protection.

(all ideas totally subject to change once I actually walk thru water at well below freezing temperatures)

[timroz]

I've got the RBH designs insulated VB socks as part of my system. I haven't tested the RBH ones extensively but i have used VB stuff for a while now.

To me this was the most important thing I had.  RBH uninsulated socks under my smartwools.  My shoes and socks were DRY.  For 4 days.  Not 1 drop of sweat in the insulation.

[bmike-vt]

does a vb next to the skin make your feet sweat / wet? i haven't used them... i tried some 'water / wind' resistant ones last winter. wore them over some thin wool liner socks, and would add a thicker smartwool over the top if needed.

in construction, a vb can cause issues if placed on the wrong side of the wall - depending on predominant exterior conditions the vb needs to be placed either on the inside or the outside to keep water from rotting your insulation.

how does it work for exercise / hiking / insulation?